Masterclass: How to win the AI talent war | Adam Ward (Cursor)

You have built and are known as someone that can build the most elite high talent density teams. Let's start with how people do it wrong, something you call the funnel of doom.

你曾打造过团队，并以擅长打造最精英、高人才密度的团队而闻名。我们先从人们常见的错误方式谈起，也就是你所说的“厄运漏斗”。

Companies think about recruiting like a funnel. I'm going to reach out to 100 people. 20% of those will apply. By definition, that is not the top 20%.

公司通常会把招聘视为一个漏斗：先联系 100 个人，其中 20% 会申请。但从定义上看，这 20% 并不是最优秀的 20%。

That is just the 20 people who you caught on a bad day. The way we all recruit is we kind of weed people out at each stage and we hire the remainder. In your mind, they're okay, there are 50 people in the world who can do this.

那只是你恰好在他们状态不佳的那天联系到的 20 个人。我们通常的招聘方式，基本是在每个阶段筛掉一部分人，然后录用剩下的人。以这种方式看，似乎世界上有 50个人能够做好这件事。

Let's go find those 50 people and you relentlessly pursue and you focus your energy on activating those people, not trying to find them out of the funnel of doom. The mistake that most companies make is they'll say, "Hey Lenny, who's the best product engineer you know?"

那么就应该去找到这 50 个人，并坚持不懈地争取他们，把精力集中在激活这些人上，而不是试图从“厄运漏斗”中找到他们。大多数公司犯的错误，是他们会问：“嘿，莱尼，你认识的最优秀的产品工程师是谁？”

That is the worst question you can ask.

这是最糟糕的提问方式。

The better question to ask is, "Hey Lenny, of all the product engineers you've worked with, who stands out to you as the person who's most collaborative with designers? [music] Or who can translate a framework into a product better than anyone you've ever seen?"

更好的问法是：“嘿，莱尼，在你合作过的所有产品工程师中，谁最让你觉得是在与设计师协作方面最出色的人？或者，谁能把一个框架转化为产品，并且做得比你见过的任何人都更好？”

When you're looking for that first recruiting hire, is there anything you think is important to look for?

当你要招聘第一位招聘人员时，有哪些你认为重要的考察点？

Recruiters are excellent at 90 to 110% [music] capacity and are terrible outside of that. If they only have half a req load, they kind of like are useless. But they're kind of great at this like edge [music] of adrenaline rush busy. You want to find those people.

招聘人员在 90% 到 110% 的工作负荷下表现出色，超出这个范围则表现很糟糕。如果他们只有半个招聘需求的工作量，就会显得不太有用。但在那种肾上腺素升高的忙碌状态下，他们会非常出色。你要寻找的正是这样的人。

What are some things you've learned about building incredible teams, keeping people working for you over the long term?

关于打造卓越团队，并让员工长期为你工作，你学到了哪些经验？怎样才能让他们长期留下来？

When you look at candidate satisfaction scores, the number one thing that's always there Today my guest is Adam Ward. Adam is known in the Valley as the most effective recruiting leader at building elite high talent density teams. He co-founded an independent recruiting firm [music] called Growth by Design, which Cursor acquired fully last year, which is not something that you often hear and is a testament to how good he

当你查看候选人满意度评分时，排在第一位、并且始终出现的一点是：今天我的嘉宾是亚当·沃德。亚当在硅谷以最有效地打造精英、高人才密度团队的招聘负责人而闻名。他联合创办了一家独立招聘公司，名为 Growth by Design，Cursor 在去年将其完全收购。这并不是常见的事情，也证明了他有多么优秀，

and his team are and how important [music] talent is right now in today's market. Adam is now head of talent at Cursor, helping them scale and build one of the most talent [music] dense teams in the world. Prior to starting his own firm, Adam led global recruiting at Pinterest, growing the company from 200 to over 2,000 [music] employees. And before that, he led a global team of 65 recruiters across 10 offices at

他的团队同样出色，也说明了在当今市场中，人才有多么重要。亚当现在是Cursor 的人才负责人，帮助他们扩张，并打造全球人才密度最高的团队之一。在创办自己的公司之前，亚当负责Pinterest 的全球招聘，将公司从 200 人发展到超过 2,000 名员工。在此之前，他曾在 Facebook 领导一支由 65 名招聘人员组成、分布在 10 个办公室的全球团队，

Facebook, helping them scale Facebook's tech [music] org from 1,000 to over 10,000 employees. If hiring the best people is your number one priority, as it should be, this conversation will open your mind up to what it takes to do that. Adam gets super tactical and extremely specific, and [music] you're going to thank me for inviting Adam on this podcast to share all of this incredible [music] advice. A huge

帮助他们扩展 Facebook 的技术团队，使其从 1,000 人增长到超过10,000 名员工。如果招聘最优秀的人才是你的头号优先事项，而它本应如此，那么这场对话将打开你的思路，让你了解做到这一点需要什么。亚当的分享非常实操，也极其具体。你会感谢我邀请亚当来到这个播客，分享所有这些精彩建议。

thank you to Brie Wolfson, Janet Fishberg, Jill Macre, [music] Mike Joiner, and Tim Kendall for suggesting topics and questions for this conversation. Before we get into it, don't forget to check out lennysproductpass.com [music] for a free year of the hottest and most beautifully crafted AI products in the [music] world, available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Adam Ward.

非常感谢 Brie Wolfson、Janet Fishberg、Jill Macre、Mike Joiner 和 Tim Kendall 提议了这场对话的话题和问题。在开始之前，别忘了访问lennysproductpass.com，获取为期一年的免费线热门且制作精美的 AI 产品。该产品面向全球，仅向Lenny 的 newsletter 订阅者提供。话不多说，让我们欢迎亚当·沃德。

Adam, thank you so much for being here.

亚当，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure.

非常感谢邀请我来。我很荣幸。

You've been doing this for 20 years now, hiring, recruiting, building teams.

你从事这一行业已经 20 年了，一直在做招聘、招募和团队建设。

How different is the market we're in today? How How How crazy is the market in the hiring market we're in today?

我们今天所处的市场有多不一样？当今的招聘市场到底有多疯狂？

If there's a scale, it's an 11. Um but, you know, I do think there's like there are similarities to the some other markets we've been in over time. You know, you mentioned that the years like there was a moment in time where a lot of companies were moving to mobile.

如果用一个量表来衡量，那就是 11 分。不过，我确实认为它与我们过去经历过的其他一些市场有相似之处。你提到过，曾经有一段时间，很多公司都在转向移动端。

And there was like there literally was not a mobile engineer, like an iOS engineer was not a thing.

当时确实可以说，市场上根本没有移动端工程师，比如 iOS 工程师这类职位。

You know, and so but there was a scramble for talent to, you know, build your mobile app and things like that.

因此，当时出现了一场人才争夺战，大家都在争抢能够开发移动应用等产品的人才。

Like there there was this moment that like that was a thing and it has like some uh similarities to that market and moment. I think that the the really the difference here is like everything here is like just so compressed.

当时有一个阶段，这成为一件大事，并且与现在的市场和时期有一些相似之处。我认为真正的区别在于，现在的一切都被极度压缩了。

So, that mobile moment was two years, maybe. You know, where like there was no mobile engineers and then there were like mobile boot camp, mobile engineer boot camps, all these things.

移动端的那个阶段大约持续了两年。当时没有移动端工程师，后来出现了移动端训练营、移动端工程师训练营，以及各种类似的项目。

You know, like now we're in like days.

现在的节奏已经是以天为单位来计算。

We're in weeks, you know, there there are no months or year measures right now.

现在是以周为单位来计算，已经不存在以月或年衡量的尺度了。

Um and so that what what makes this like feel very different.

嗯，所以这就是为什么这件事感觉很不一样。

The other thing that feels very different about this market is there's many people doing extremely well. It's the most competitive, as you said, 11 out of 10 for specific roles. A lot of other people are just really struggling, having a really hard to time finding jobs.

这个市场还有一点非常不同，那就是有很多人表现得极其出色。正如你所说，对于特定岗位，竞争激烈程度是 11分（满分 10 分）。但还有很多人真的非常挣扎，找工作非常困难。

Yeah, it's a tale of two cities, really.

对，这真的是一个两极分化的故事。

Um you can read uh back-to-back headlines of you know, NBA salary offers to a new grad PhD and the next line being a blue-chip company laying off 10% of workforce. You know, like how can both of these things be be true? And you see this shift of how companies are doing work and getting work done.

嗯，你可以连续读到这样的新闻标题：比如，NBA 级别的薪资报价给一位刚毕业的博士，而下一条则是一家蓝筹公司裁掉 10%的员工。你知道，这两件事怎么可能同时为真？你会看到公司完成工作的方式正在发生变化。

And I really believe we're in this like moment where there's this like resettlement of talent and labor and how work gets done. And I really believe that the this like there will be a resettlement and there will be a shift and this will this will come back, but I feel like we're in like the one of the largest gaps of those worlds right now that I believe will and I want to believe will come back closer together.

而且我真的相信，我们正处于这样一个时刻：人才、劳动力以及工作完成方式都在重新配置。而且我真的相信，这件事会出现重新配置，也会发生转变，一切都会恢复过来，但我觉得我们正处在这些世界之间最大的鸿沟之一，我相信而且我想相信，它终将会重新拉近一些。

This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor WorkOS. What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Replit, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common?

本期节目由我们的本季冠名赞助商 WorkOS 倾情赞助。OpenAI、Anthropic、Cursor、Replit、Sierra、Clay，以及数百家其他成功的公司有什么共同点？

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它们都由 WorkOS 驱动。如果你正在为企业构建产品，你一定体会过集成单点登录、跨域身份管理系统、基于角色的访问控制、审计日志及其他大公司所要求功能的痛苦。WorkOS 将这些阻碍成交的因素转化为可即插即用的 API，并提供一个现代化的开发者平台，专为企业级 SaaS 打造。几乎我投资的每一家创业公司，只要开始向上拓展市场，最终都会

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与 WorkOS 合作。原因是他们就是最好的。无论你是一家试图拿下首个企业客户的种子期创业公司，还是一家正在全球扩张的独角兽公司，WorkOS 都是让你快速具备企业级服务能力、消除增长阻碍的最快途径。它本质上就是企业功能领域的 Stripe。[音乐] 访问 workos.com 即可开始使用，或者直接在他们的 Slack 上联系他们，那里有真正的工程师在等待

to answer your questions. WorkOS allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to workos.com to make your app enterprise ready today.

回答你的问题。WorkOS 让你能够借助出色的 API 更快构建产品，配合全面的文档和流畅的开发者体验。访问 workos.com，让你的应用今天就具备企业级服务能力。

What are roles that are kind of trending up in the most in demand right now? And what are maybe less and less in demand?

现在哪些岗位的需求正在上升、最为抢手？又有哪些需求可能越来越低？

And you have a really unique perspective because not only you're a cursor now, but before that you had your own independent agency working with a ton of different companies. So, you got to see across a lot of different places. What's kind of trending up? What's most in demand and what's maybe softer now?

你的视角非常独特，因为你现在不仅在 Cursor 工作，此前你还经营着自己的独立招聘机构，服务过大量不同的公司。所以，你能看到许多不同领域的情况。哪些岗位正在上升？哪些最抢手，哪些现在可能比较疲软？

Yeah, I think one thing is really in demand is this and there's lots of different names for it, but this like forward deployed engineer, this like technical person who can partner with a sales team and partner with a customer to deploy what is a, you know, can be for like some audiences in a company a very technical and maybe overwhelming product or helping companies think about moving from token maxing to like

对，我觉得有一种岗位的需求非常旺盛，它有很多不同的叫法，但就是那种前线部署工程师，那种能够与销售团队和客户协作的技术人员，负责部署一些——你知道——可能对公司中的某些受众来说是非常技术性、或许令人望而生畏的东西。产品，或帮助公司思考如何从令牌用量最大化转向，比如说

optimizing, maxing to optimizing. And so, that's like a I think a new skill as CFOs start to get the bill coming in.

优化，从最大化转向优化。而且所以，我觉得这算是一项新技能，因为首席财务官开始收到账单了。

Um, you know, the companies are able to help partner with them to think about what's the the best solution for them.

嗯，你知道，这些公司能够帮助并与他们合作，思考什么才是最适合他们的解决方案。

So, that's a really unique skill because you are you're deeply technical yourself. You understand the product, but you can also walk into a room with executives and leaders and help conjugate some of that and then even deploy that help them deploy that into their workforce. I think that's like a a real supply demand issue right now.

所以，这是一项非常独特的技能，因为你自己就具备很深的技术能力你了解产品，但你也可以走进一间有高管和领导者的会议室，帮助阐释其中的一些内容然后甚至将其落地，帮助他们将其部署到他们的员工队伍中。我觉得这确实是一个供需问题，目前如此。

I think maybe the thing that is waning, I would say, is like the specialized technical person.

我觉得可能正在减弱的，应该是那种高度专业化的技术人才。

The person who is I you know, it's cuz I think you almost see this like squeezing together of engineer product design in some ways where we would love a designer who can actually do for be more of like a design engineer, right? And we want that like super deep technical engineer that has a little bit more stronger product sense. And so you kind of see that So I think the people who are maybe like very narrow, very

就是那种人，我是说，你知道，这是因为我觉得你几乎能看到这样一种融合即工程、产品和设计在某些方面我们会很希望有一位设计师能够实际上做更多类似设计工程师的工作，对吧？而且我们也想要那种技术功底极深的工程师，同时具备一点更强的产品感觉。所以你会有点看到这种趋势。所以我觉得那些可能非常狭窄、非常

deep, and like overly um specialized in a way are waning like in like in the same way along that vein might also be like the new grad who just hasn't had enough like experience uh to be able to do that where a a product like Cursor or others can do some of that work right now.

深入，而且在某种意义上过度专业化的人才正在减少。沿着同样的思路，可能也包括那些刚毕业、还没有足够经验去做到这一点的新人，呃因为像 Cursor 或其他产品可以完成其中的一些工作了。

This is extremely interesting. I haven't heard it put this way before.

这非常有意思。我以前还没有听过有人这样说。

Interestingly with the FDE role, it feels similar to the mobile example you shared where not very few people have actually been forward deployed engineers.

有意思的是，前线部署工程师这个角色，感觉和你分享的移动端例子很相似，因为实际上曾经做过前线部署工程师的人并不多。工程师。

Uh so what what's kind of the the um I don't know the look of a person that can become an FDE?

呃，所以，什么样的人，嗯，我不知道该怎么说，就是具备什么特质的人能够成为前线部署工程师？

Yeah, I actually think it is that engineer it is that person who maybe was like a full stack engineer in like a three to five years ago is now maybe actually that forward deployed engineer, right? And so uh and you you kind of you talk to some of the these folks and they actually like it like kind of unlocks something in them. Like they're kind of like moving out of the terminal and moving in into like the company, you

对，我其实觉得就是那种工程师，就是那种可能曾经是全栈工程师的人，大概在三到五年前，而现在可能实际上是前线部署工程师，对吧？所以呃，你会和其中一些人聊聊，而他们实际上会觉得这仿佛开启了某种东西，在他们内心。就像他们有点像是从终端里走出来进入公司，你知道，

know, and into the customers and clients. And for the right person that like that's super energizing kind of unlocks another chapter or like an maybe a unexpected chapter in their career.

走近客户和顾客。而对于合适的人来说，这会让人特别有干劲，像是开启职业生涯的另一个篇章，或者说也许一个意想不到的篇章。

That is interesting. I was expecting you to say AI researchers said this is interesting. And imagine cuz there's not as many of those roles.

这很有意思。我本以为你会说 AI 研究员会说这很有意思。可以想象，因为这类职位没那么多。

I think so. I think I think it's just a that's a very defined set.

我觉得是。我觉得，我觉得这只是一个界定得非常明确的群体。

Mhm.

是的。

And so like you got like it's a very clear bracket of what that is and how many there are and where they are.

因此，这形成了一个非常清晰的范围：它是什么、有多少人，以及这些人在哪里。

And I think this like I I think that sometimes the bigger challenges are the nebulous things or the new the very new things uh that I think are sometimes just as challenging as the scarcity ones of an AI or ML engineer.

我认为，有时候更大的挑战来自那些模糊的事物，或者非常新的事物；它们有时同样具有挑战性，就像稀缺的 AI 或 ML 工程师一样。

Just as a final question along these lines, what about just uh the core product design engineering roles? Are those kind of steady as they've been? Is one increasing, decreasing? How's that looking?

顺着这个话题，最后一个问题：核心的产品、设计、工程岗位情况如何？这些岗位是否一直比较稳定？是否有某些类别在增加或减少？

I think they're high I think they're but I think there's you probably see a lot of conversation out there around this, you know, where I think we're getting a little bit back in a good way to the craft of things. And so if you think about what AI can do in the design world, uh it can also create a lot of slop in its own way.

我认为这些岗位的需求很高。不过，你可能已经看到很多相关讨论。我认为，我们正在以一种积极的方式，稍微回归对技艺的追求。以 AI 在设计领域的能力为例，它也能以自己的方式制造出很多粗制滥造的东西。

And so I'm an optimist. Just off you'll you'll probably hear that throughout.

因此，我是一个乐观主义者。你们大概会在整个对话中听出来。

Same.

我也是。

And and I think and I think it's just a a better way to live. Um but I think what I will hopefully help us get back is to like to to the craft of what we do. You know, and maybe a an appreciation for it. And I see that in the design world too.

而且，我认为这本身是一种更好的生活方式。不过，我认为它有望帮助我们重新回归我们所做之事的技艺本身，也可能帮助我们重新形成对技艺的欣赏。我能从中看到这一点。设计领域也是如此。

And is that kind of in saying ICs are more in demand and especially ICs that are have good taste, good judgment? Is that kind of the core?

这是否意味着 IC 更受追捧，尤其是那些具备良好品味和判断力的 IC？这算是核心因素吗？

Yeah, I think like you know, we've seen this for maybe the last 12 or the rise of the power IC.

是的。我认为，我们看到这种趋势大概已经有 12 年了，也可以说是强势 IC 的崛起。

Yeah.

是的。

Um and uh the recognition and appreciation for that work I think has like come like almost in in a full circle moment for them. But like I think taste, decision-making, problem-solving, these these characteristics, curiosity, um in all the good ways I think are coming back up to the surface.

这类工作所获得的认可和重视，我认为几乎已经到了一个完整回归的时刻。但我认为，品味、决策能力、解决问题的能力，以及好奇心等特质，正在从各个积极的角度重新浮现。

Awesome. Okay. So let me let me kind of zoom out and frame the conversation that uh I'm hoping we have uh broadly. You have built and are known as someone that can build the most elite high talent density teams. So many people kept telling me you were the person that does this better than anyone else.

太棒了。接下来我稍微拉远一点，框定一下我希望我们进行的整体讨论。你曾经打造过团队，并且以能够打造最顶尖的高人才密度团队而闻名。很多人一直告诉我，在这方面你做得比任何人都好。

This is every company's and founders dream. Build the highest talent talent density team. So I'm going to go through this in a sequence.

这是每家公司和每位创始人的梦想：打造人才密度最高的团队。因此，我会按照顺序讨论这个话题。

Uh let's start with something you call the funnel of doom hiring. Talk about the funnel of doom. What is the funnel of doom?

我们先从你所说的“厄运漏斗”招聘开始。请谈谈“厄运漏斗”。什么是“厄运漏斗”？

Yeah.

好的。

And this is a concept I got to um uh recognize my very first as an intern actually in 1998 at a company called Trilogy which is a somewhat of an infamous company around recruiting and it's kind of where I learned the trade.

这是我在第一份实习工作中认识到的概念，实际上是在 1998 年，当时我在一家名为 Trilogy 的公司工作。这家公司在招聘领域带有一定传奇色彩，也是我学习这门手艺的地方。

Uh my very first manager Jeff Daniel uh he we did this campus tour around the country talking to CS students and that's where I first heard the term. He coined that term so I had to acknowledge that. But I think uh well the funnel did forever uh almost forever as you think about the recruiting history companies think about recruiting like a like a funnel. You know, maybe akin to a sales funnel.

我的第一位经理 Jeff Daniel 带着我们在全国各地的大学巡回，与计算机科学专业的学生交流。我第一次听到这个词就是在那里。这个术语是他创造的，所以我需要说明这一点。招聘漏斗几乎自招聘历史开始以来，就一直是公司思考招聘时采用的模型，可能类似于销售漏斗。

Right? Where they think about different stages, pass through rates and things like that.

公司会考虑不同阶段、通过率等因素。

And when you think about how most companies have recruited over these last several decades it's really been candidates come from kind of three buckets. They could they apply, they are activated or sourced or they're referred.

回顾大多数公司在过去几十年里的招聘方式，候选人通常来自三类渠道：主动申请、被激活或被寻访，以及内推。

But if you kind of think about like for a lot of companies who think about talent density typically referrals and sourcing or activation of passive talent is is is really the focus. And when you kind of even narrow further on this like source talent this is how most companies think about it. I am going to reach out to 100 people.

但对于许多重视人才密度的公司来说，它们通常会把内推以及寻访或激活被动人才作为真正的重点。如果进一步缩小范围，以寻访人才为例，大多数公司会这样看待这件事：我会联系 100 个人。

20 people will reply just for round numbers. So 20% of those will reply. By definition that is not the top 20% that is just the 20 people who you caught on a bad day for them. Good day for you, bad day for them.

为了便于计算，假设其中 20 个人会回复，也就是 20% 会回复。按照定义，这 20 个人并不是最顶尖的 20%，而只是恰好在状态不佳时被你联系到的那 20 个人。对你来说这是好日子，但对他们来说是糟糕的一天。

And so, you're starting with a sub-optimal set. You're not starting with the top 20% even if this and then the way we all recruit is we kind of weed people out at each stage and we hire the remainder.

因此，你一开始面对的就是一批次优的候选人。你并不是从最顶尖的 20% 开始。即便如此，我们所有人的招聘方式仍然是在每个阶段筛掉一些人，然后录用剩下的人。

So, this remainder hiring is the output of the funnel of doom.

因此，这种录用剩余候选人的做法，就是“厄运漏斗”的产出。

And you say when you say that out loud, you're like, that's kind of messed up.

当你把这句话说出来时，会发现这件事有些不对劲。

If I If I think about building a talent-dense company over time is that really the best approach? Or does that kind of get me like just above average over time assuming I have really good interview process and hygiene and all these things? You kind of regress to the mean over time as you get to as you get to volume.

如果我想打造一家长期保持高人才密度的公司，这真的是最好的方法吗？还是说，即便我有非常好的面试流程、严谨的流程管理以及相关配套措施，随着时间推移，这种方法也只能让我达到略高于平均水平？当招聘量增加并达到一定规模后，结果会逐渐回归均值。

And so, I we just think about this in a different way is like, what if you had confidence up front of who the top 20% was and then you use your assessment process to validate that thesis of who those are.

因此，我们只是换了一种方式思考这个问题：如果你一开始就能有把握地判断谁属于最顶尖的 20%，再用评估流程来验证这一判断，确认这些人是谁。

That seems like a better you know, so there's this funnel doom, but there's like within a funnel doom this is a pillar of excellence.

这似乎是更好的做法。因此，虽然存在这个厄运漏斗，但在厄运漏斗之中，也存在这样一个卓越支柱。

What if you started with the pillar of excellence and went from there versus having this wide funnel?

如果你从这个卓越支柱开始，并以此为起点，而不是建立一个如此宽的漏斗呢？

Cuz imagine how expensive that is to do remainder-based hiring and you kind of hire the person who drops to the bottom.

因为可以想想，这种做法成本很高。基于余量的招聘，最终往往只是雇用了那个落到最底部的人。

Uh I love this especially hearing this.

我很喜欢这个观点，尤其是听你这样表述之后。

Like this is how hiring has been forever and just hear you describe it, it's clear this is not optimal.

招聘似乎一直都是这样运作的，但听你描述之后，很明显这种方式并不理想。

Why hasn't this changed uh ever?

为什么这种做法一直没有改变？

There is a um something detrimental about comparing it to a sales funnel.

有一种类比是有害的，那就是把招聘与销售漏斗作比较。

Because in a sales funnel we're you know, as as a a sales person you're typically selling a widget a piece of a software, an item. Those things are relatively static and rational.

因为在销售漏斗中，作为一名销售人员，通常是在销售一个小工具、一款软件或一件商品。这些东西相对静态，也相对理性。

In recruiting, you have an irrational unit of a hiring manager and recruiter and and in another rational unit of a candidate. And so, to believe that things are transactional and linear and passed through in the same ways, I think is a bit of a fallacy. But, sales has been around for hundreds of years? Hundred you know, a long time. Recruiting as a craft or in the kind of this is like 50 years? 40 years? You know, so we're

在招聘中，你面对的是一个非理性的、由招聘经理和招聘人员构成的单元，以及另一个非理性的、由候选人构成的单元。因此，如果认为事情是交易式、线性的，并且会以同样的方式向下流转，我认为这有些谬误。不过，销售已经存在了数百年，至少也有很长时间了。招聘作为一门技艺，或者说作为一个行业，大概只有 50 年，或 40 年。所以我们在这方面

behind on it, but like as humans, we often try to relate a problem to another problem that we know. And so, I think this connectedness to sales has been somewhat detrimental to companies as they think about doing this in a more strategic way.

仍然比较落后。不过，作为人类，我们经常会试图把一个问题关联到另一个熟悉的问题上。因此，我认为这种与销售的关联，在一定程度上损害了公司以更具战略性的方式思考如何做好招聘。

So, let's follow this thread and help make it very clear what you're describing here. The way I've heard you describe this is you treat every hire as an executive recruiting sort of hire uh and the goal is to go for the top 1% of people out in the world versus kind of who you kind of drops in the funnel.

那我们就顺着这个思路，帮助大家非常清楚地理解你在这里描述的内容。我听过你这样描述：你把每一次招聘都当作某种高管猎聘式招聘，目标是争取全球最顶尖的 1% 人才，而不是那些恰好掉进漏斗里的人。

Talk more about just that kind of way of thinking about it.

请再多谈谈这种思考方式。

So, if you've ever worked on like a senior specialist hire or leadership role done well, here's there's roughly like three main steps. One is scoping.

如果你曾经负责过高级专家职位或领导岗位的招聘，并且做得很好，大致会经历三个主要步骤。第一是界定范围。

And so, if you think about going after the 1%, the most important step is getting really clear on what 1% means to you.

如果你想争取那 1%，最重要的一步是非常明确 1% 对你而言意味着什么。

And so, if you've ever heard that phrase like I will I'll I'll know what if I'll know it when I see it, I'll know what great looks like, you actually you won't.

如果你以前听过那句话，比如“看到时我就会知道什么是优秀”，实际上你并不会。

You won't see You won't know cuz you haven't spent like the time objectively identifying what that what great looks like. And so, when you think about scoping, if we can just dive into that the cornerstone piece, really good scoping is thinking about um what are like the skills and experiences you're looking for. You stack rank these things, you get really clear objectively before you talk to any candidate, but it

你不会仅凭看到就知道，因为你没有真正花时间客观地识别优秀到底是什么样子。因此，当你思考界定需求时，如果深入看这个基石环节，真正做好需求界定，就是要思考你在寻找哪些技能和经验。你要给这些因素排出优先级，并且在与任何候选人交谈之前，客观而清晰地想明白这些问题。这会奠定你的整个流程，也会奠定

sets up your entire process. It sets up your sourcing strategy. It sets up your pitch for them cuz you're asking questions like um why is this role important? What would success look like?" It you know, it really helps you craft those things. It also helps you set up your assessment process of like what you're going to be assessing against. It helps you think about kind of that close of like, "Why this person

你的寻访策略。它会奠定你向候选人推介的说辞，因为你会提出诸如“为什么这个岗位很重要？”“成功会是什么样子？”之类的问题。这确实能帮助你构建这些内容。它还能帮助你搭建评估流程，例如你要依据什么来评估候选人。它还能帮助你思考最后收尾时该如何表达，例如：“为什么是这个人，

and why this role is going to have big impact here?" So, it really that I think piece of the hiring process is under invested in. But in a leadership search, that is often like known to be a a really strong cornerstone. So, let's say you take like this like really good scoping and then you kind of you pair it with really good market mapping, intelligence, and signals that to give you confidence of who the very best

以及为什么这个岗位会在这里产生巨大影响？”因此，我认为招聘流程中的这一环节投入不足。但在领导岗位招聘中，这通常被认为是一个非常重要的基石。假设你完成了非常好的需求界定，并且将其与出色的人才市场地图绘制、情报和信号结合起来，从而让你确信谁才是最优秀的

people are. So, when you're doing a leadership search, for example, you're like, "Okay, there's really in your mind like, hey, there are 50 people in the world who can do this. Let's go find those 50 people."

人才。比如在做领导岗位招聘时，你会想：“世界上有 50 个人能胜任这件事，我们去找这 50 个人。”

Right? And so, that kind of that approach, I think you can do at scale if you do that really good scoping and get really clear on what that looks like.

因此，我认为这种方法可以规模化运用，前提是你做好需求界定，并且非常清楚这具体意味着什么。

And then you take that that like list of 50 people, those targets, and you relentlessly pursue and you focus your energy on activating those people, not trying to find them out of the funnel of doom.

然后，你拿着那份 50 人名单，也就是那些目标人选，坚持不懈地追求他们，把精力集中在激活这些人上，而不是试图从“厄运漏斗”里寻找人选。

Um, hi you know, large population.

那个漏斗里的人群非常庞大。

Amazing.

太棒了。

Uh, I imagine everyone listening to this is going to be like, "We need Adam on our team ASAP." Uh, unfortunately, you're locked in at a company and so we're going to do our best to try to extract as much wisdom as we can in this conversation because you're uh, you have a job. So, this is great. So, kind of the three steps here that you walked through of how to approach hiring from this perspective, the way that

我想，每个正在收听这期节目的人都会想：“我们得赶紧把 Adam 招进团队。”遗憾的是，你已经被一家公司锁定了，所以我们会尽力在这次对话中汲取尽可能多的智慧，因为你毕竟还有本职工作。这很好。你刚才讲到的三个步骤，是关于你如何从这个角度处理招聘，也就是

executives are hired. This idea of going after top 1%. So, step one was be very clear on what top percent looks like.

高管招聘的方式，以及锁定顶尖 1% 人才的思路。第一步，是非常明确顶尖 1% 的人才是什么样的。

So, just to kind of mirror back what you just shared, be clear on the skills you need and kind of stack rank, here's the skills we need from them. This person, what experiences we're looking for and stack rank that. Talk about why this role is impactful and just why this is so important. Is there anything else there just to flesh that up?

简单复述一下你刚刚分享的内容：明确你需要的技能，并按优先级排序；明确这个人需要具备哪些经历，并按优先级排序；说明这个岗位为什么有影响力，以及这件事为什么如此重要。还有什么可以补充展开的吗？

I I those are the general buckets. Like every company will have other specific things that really matter. But, yeah, those would be Yeah, those would be the things And remember, those are all those these are things you're not asking are what companies are they from? Uh these are the kind of these are These are objective, somewhat transferable things.

我认为这些是总体类别。每家公司都会有一些其他具体且真正重要的事项，不过这些会是重点。还要记住，这些都不是在问“他们来自哪家公司？”这些是客观的、在一定程度上可以迁移的东西。

Versus trying to piggyback off of someone else's process or definition of great. Cuz we just said almost every company's doing this wrong or has company doing funnel of doom. So, why would we mirror or map someone else's process that we feel like like maybe wasn't perfect? Um and your company is different, your product is different. And so, you you owe it to yourself to kind of identify what does

不要试图借用别人的流程或对优秀的定义。正如我们刚刚说过的，几乎每家公司都把这件事做错了，或者公司陷入了“厄运漏斗”。既然我们认为其他公司的流程可能并不完美，为什么还要照搬或套用它？而且，你们的公司不同，产品也不同。因此，你确实应该为自己梳理清楚，究竟什么样

great look like for you and who's going to be successful in this role in this product versus what was successful for someone else in a process that maybe you don't have full confidence in anyway.

才算优秀，以及谁会在这个岗位、这个产品中取得成功，而不是关注别人在哪个流程中成功；那个流程本身，你可能也并没有完全的信心。

So, you're saying specifically don't focus on and it's a trap to focus on the logos on the resume.

所以，你具体是在说，不要把重点放在简历上的公司 logo 上，而这正是一个陷阱。

I think so.

我认为是这样。

Mhm.

嗯。

Yeah. There are clearly vintages of companies when you're like, "Hey, you know, this team at this company at this time did fantastic things. And possibly because that person was on that team at that company at that time, they are great." Possibly.

是的。显然，对于不同阶段的公司，你可能会说：“这家公司这个团队在那个时期做出了很了不起的事。也许因为那个人当时在那家公司、那个团队里，他就很优秀。”这是有可能的。

That can be like shorthand.

这可以算是一种速记说法。

Um but that But, most companies jump to that almost immediately.

但大多数公司会很快转向这种做法。

Awesome. Okay. Step two is mapping out and finding basically the top 50. What are tools that help you do that? Is it like LinkedIn? Is it something else?

太棒了。好，第二步是梳理并找到基本上最顶尖的 50 人。有哪些工具可以帮助你做到这一点？是 LinkedIn 之类的工具，还是其他方法？

I think it's a combination of things. Um but I think I where I where we typically start is a set of people who we trust in terms of having high taste in talent.

我认为这是多种方法的结合。不过，我们通常会从一群我们信任、并且在人才判断上品位很高的人开始。

And so, it But, I think the mistake though, and that's not that's an obvious point, but the mistake that most companies make is they'll say, "Hey Lenny, who's the best uh product engineer you know?"

其中的误区在于，虽然这一点并不显而易见，但大多数公司都会犯这样的错误：他们会问：“莱尼，你认识的最好的产品工程师是谁？”

That is the worst question you can ask.

这是你能问的最糟糕的问题。

The best The better question to ask is, "Hey, Lenny, of all the product engineers you worked with, who stands out to you as the person who's most collaborative with designers?

更好的提问方式是：“莱尼，在你共事过的所有产品工程师中，谁最突出，最擅长与设计师协作？”

Or who can translate a framework into a product better than anyone you've ever seen?" You got to have to put these very specific characteristics or skills or needs for your team, and then that's way easier for you to conjure up people that way than like this broad question of who's the best person.

或者：“谁最擅长把一个框架转化为产品，比你见过的任何人都做得更好？”你需要提出这些非常具体的特质、技能或团队需求。这样，对方才更容易想到人选，而不是回答“谁是最优秀的人”这种宽泛的问题。

And I imagine that maps to the step one, which is where you map the skills, experience, and all that.

我想这和第一步是对应的，也就是你梳理技能、经验以及类似内容的那一步。

you're asking are mapping back to those that cornerstone work that you did in step one.

你提出的问题会对应回你在第一步中完成的那些基础工作。

So, when you ask the right targeted questions to a set of people, you actually start to triangulate around the same names.

因此，当你向一群人提出恰当且有针对性的问题时，实际上会开始围绕相同的名字进行交叉验证。

Mhm.

嗯。

Like, "Ah, Um Lenny mentioned them, but so did Sally.

比如：“莱尼提到了他们，Sally 也提到了。”

What What Let's Let's put this person on the list on the target list."

那就把这个人放到名单上，放进目标名单里。

Okay, so So, part of the strategy here is you talk to people you trust who are awesome, whose taste you trust, ask them these questions.

好，所以这里的策略之一，是去和那些你信任且很出色的人交谈；你也信任他们的判断品位，然后向他们提出这些问题。

Uh what else helps you find these people in the world?

呃，还有什么能帮你找到这些人呢？

So, if you think about um let's Let's pull out like the set of um characteristics.

所以，如果你想想，呃，我们来梳理一下这些，呃，特质。

Like, "Okay, um the characteristics of someone we want is like really uh curious, uh systems thinker, whatever they might be." Maybe two or three things. Then you're like thinking about, "What companies also share that approach to how they hire?"

比如说：“好，呃，我们想找的人的特质包括非常好奇、具备系统性思维，诸如此类的特质。”可能就两三项。然后你会想，“还有哪些公司在招聘时也秉持这种方法？”

And you could literally probably do a quick Boolean or AI string and be like, "Hey, look at all the job openings in the world among these 100 companies, which ones also say these characteristics matter?" Right?

你其实很可能可以直接做一个快速的布尔搜索，或者用 AI 写个检索式，说：“嘿，看看所有这些 100 家公司在全球发布的职位空缺，哪些公司也说这些特质很重要？”对吧？

So, you kind of think about, "Ooh, where could they maybe picked up some of these skills for a company who also said that that matters as well." And so, then you start to kind of build like company lists that aren't the normal list you have, but you but in the those they might show up there, too, but let's validate it through the things that we objectively said we wanted for us.

于是你会想：“噢，他们可能是在哪里习得了其中一些技能——在那些同样认为这些特质很重要的公司？”然后，你就开始建立一些公司名单，它们不是你通常会列出的名单，但在那些名单里，他们也可能会出现。不过，让我们通过我们客观认定适合我们的那些要素来验证。

It's so interesting. Systems thinking has come up on a four last four podcasts I've done. Such a trending up attribute people are looking for these days.

太有意思了。系统性思维在我最近做的四期播客里都出现过。这是如今人们越来越看重的一项特质。人们现在都在寻找这种特质。

Yeah, I think it's like always been there in a little bit, but I think it's just become really accentuated now uh in this era.

对，我觉得它其实一直多少都在那里，只是我觉得如今在这个时代，它被格外凸显了。呃。

When you when you hear the term systems thinking, what's what's kind of a way you describe what that actually means when people hear that term?

当你听到“系统性思维”这个词时，你会怎么向大家描述它实际意味着什么？

I I I learned this pretty early uh maybe in the the second company I worked for.

我，我，我很早就学到了这个概念，呃，可能是在我工作的第二家公司。

And it comes around to a fundamental question of what problem are we trying to solve?

它归根结底涉及一个根本性的问题：我们究竟试图解决什么问题？

Right? And so when I think about systems thinking or when I'm sitting around like, what is like the fundamental root question problem that we're trying to solve? And then how do we take this like larger problem and break it into really small pieces? And I've fortunately been working with like engineers most of my life and I just really have learned and I admired how they can take something that's really big and break it into kind

对吧？所以，当我想到系统性思维，或者我在思考我们试图解决的根本、核心问题到底是什么时，以及我们如何把这个较大的问题拆解成非常小的部分？而我很幸运，大部分时间都在和工程师一起工作。生活中，我确实学到了我很欣赏他们能够把一些事情真正很大的问题拆解成某种

of start to tackle that problem that problem. As long as you're anchored into like what is the overall thing um that we're trying to solve here.

着手应对那个问题的方式问题。只要你始终锚定在比如说，整体上我们到底要解决什么问题。

Awesome, very helpful. People always hear these terms and they're like, yeah, yeah, I'm a great systems thinker. And so it's always helpful to just hear from different people what that actually means.

太棒了，非常有帮助。人们总是听到这些术语，然后会说，没错，没错，我是个很棒的系统性思考者。然后所以，听听不同的人怎么说这实际上意味着什么，总是很有帮助。

You know, I think systems thinking sounds very strategic, but actually I think it's ex- extremely tactical.

你知道，我觉得系统性思考听起来很有战略性，但实际上我觉得它极其、极其战术化。

The very best systems thinkers take these things and put them into like very small tactics and start to remove each you know, tactic by tactic kind of remove the problem, remove the the blocker.

最顶尖的系统性思考者会把这些事情转化成非常细小的战术，然后开始逐步移除每一个，你知道，一个战术接一个战术地解决问题，移除那个障碍。

So to close the thread on this step of finding these incredible people, what what I'm hearing is mostly it's kind of sit around, talk to people, and just jam in a doc probably of here's people that people recommend, here's companies to look at.

那么，为了结束关于这个步骤的话题，也就是寻找这些不可思议的人才，我想问我听下来，主要就是坐下来，和人聊聊，然后一起头脑风暴大概在一份文档里写下这些人大家推荐的人选，还有这些公司值得看看。

Yeah, and there are tools and there's there's LinkedIn, there's all these things too.

对，也有各种工具，还有LinkedIn，还有所有这些东西。

Um but I think the most valuable one is the most time-intensive one.

嗯，但我觉得最有价值的是最耗时间的那种。

Which is you spending time in in digging into people's networks. I I I I I you know, we've shared this before, but uh people on my team whose entire job is to dig into our current employees' networks.

也就是你花时间深入挖掘人们的人脉网络。我、我、我、我、我你知道，我们之前也分享过，但我团队里有些人的全部工作就是深入挖掘我们现有员工的人脉网络。

You could you could automate that.

你可以把这件事自动化。

You could use an AI tool and have some fit walk them through a facilitation of it, but nothing beats you and I sitting down every other week for 6 weeks and diving into people. You're like, "Hey, last session uh you gave me these three names. I checked out like And then, but what about this person?" You're like, "Oh, yeah. They were great, too." Like, "Oh, well, what's going to happen?" So, you kind of go back to back. And by the way,

你可以使用 AI 工具，让某个助手带着他们完成这个流程，但没有什么比得上你和我坐下来连续 6 周每隔一周见一次，然后深入聊聊这些人。你会说：『嘿，上次呃，你给了我这三个名字。我去了解了一下，比如说……不过，那这个人怎么样？』你会说：『哦，对。他们也很棒。』比如：『哦，那接下来会怎么样？』所以，你就这样一个接一个地往下聊。顺便说一句，

I'm also holding you accountable for you sending out notes.

我也在让你为你自己负责发出跟进消息。

And what did they say? Oh, they reply?

他们怎么说？哦，他们回复了吗？

You're going to send another note? And so, kind of this like one-to-one, hand-to-hand cultivating of signal I think it's a really important. Of course, those signals go into like a system and a database, but the extraction I think is a hugely personal and effective approach.

你还要再发一条跟进消息？然后所以，有点像这种一对一的、手把手的信号培育我觉得这真的很重要。当然，这些信号会进入一个系统和数据库，但我认为，信息提取是一个极具个人化且有效的方法。

This all sounds very time-intensive and slow and lots of work.

这一切听起来都非常耗时，很慢，而且工作量很大。

How do you You know, there's a reason companies don't hire this way, treat everyone as an exec cuz they're not execs. They're, you know, IC engineers, PMs.

公司之所以不采用这种招聘方式，不把每个人都当作高管来对待，是因为他们并不是高管。他们是个人贡献者工程师、产品经理。

How do you talk about that trade-off of taking this approach knowing that it's going to take a lot more time and effort?

你如何看待这种取舍：明知这种方法会花费更多时间和精力，却仍然采用它？

Yeah. Yeah. Uh so, I mean, I usually like will ask a question, so founder, like you know, in the all the things are important to you um where does talent fall into that list? And like ah, it's number one.

是的。所以，我通常会问创始人一个问题：在所有对你重要的事情中，人才在清单上排第几位？答案通常是第一位。

Like, talent is the most important thing. Okay. So, if talent is the most number one thing, like there it's not about time or cost like this is the most this is where the focus should be. And so, if if talent is number one, then there should be no obstacles to in terms of effort or resourcing uh or time put in to get there cuz that is paramount to your success. You just said that objectively.

例如，人才是最重要的事情。既然人才是最重要的事情，那么这就不是时间或成本的问题；这就是最重要的事项，重点就应该放在这里。因此，如果人才排在第一位，那么在投入精力、资源或时间方面，就不应存在任何阻碍，因为这对你的成功至关重要。你刚才已经客观地表达了这一点。

And so, you know, so if both can't be true, you know, you can't say, "Hey, it's the most important thing and I'm going to outsource it or I'm going to hand it over to a recruiting organization to do.

因此，这两种说法不能同时成立。你不能一边说“这是最重要的事”，一边又把它外包，或者交给招聘团队去做。

If it's the number one thing that's like that is your focus.

如果它是第一要务，那它就是你的重点。

Like hearing that obviously correct. Why would you not do that? And then there's like holy everything's on fire all the time. I have to make time for all this stuff, all these meetings and it's just like is there anything you do to help keep a founder and a team on track and just sticking to this plan knowing it's so much work and time?

这听起来显然是正确的。为什么不这么做呢？但接下来就会出现这样的情况：一切总是在出问题，我还要为这些事务和会议腾出时间。你有没有什么方法，能够帮助创始人和团队保持正轨，坚持执行这个计划，即便他们知道这需要投入大量工作和时间？

Yeah, I mean typically the founders keeping the company on track around that the very best companies. And so and part of it keeping on track means like keeping top of mind. You know, there's also the adage of like what gets measured gets done.

是的。通常来说，最优秀的公司会由创始人推动公司在这方面保持正轨。保持正轨的一部分，就是始终把这件事放在心上。还有一句常见的说法，大意是：衡量什么，什么就会被完成。

So if it's an important thing, we we measure it just like we might measure up time or we might measure customer satisfaction or we might measure revenue and we hold those teams accountable. We also hold hiring managers and leaders and organizations accountable to hiring.

因此，如果这是一件重要的事，我们就衡量它，就像衡量正常运行时间、客户满意度或收入一样，并让相关团队对此负责。我们也会让招聘经理、领导者和组织对招聘负责。

And so keeping it top of mind but putting in the right systems around rewards and recognition and all those things around it will help people keep it as a priority. But if you aren't measuring it or they will hand that over or they will shirk that responsibility to somewhere else.

因此，要始终把它放在心上，同时建立正确的制度，包括围绕奖励、认可等方面的制度，这会帮助人们把它保持为优先事项。但如果你不衡量它，人们就会把它交出去，或者逃避这项责任，把责任推到别处。

Yeah, one of your big pet peeves is having the recruiters to sit not basically empowering the recruiters and hiring managers not being deeply involved in the process.

是的，你特别反感的一件事，是让招聘人员只是坐在那里，而不是给招聘人员真正赋能；同时，招聘经理也没有深度参与整个流程。

Yeah, I think a lot of companies the recruiting owns the hiring goal.

是的，我认为很多公司会让招聘团队承担招聘目标。

And I've yet to be in a company where recruiters are making hiring decisions.

但我至今还没有待过一家公司，在那里招聘人员负责做出招聘决策。

So these things are in conflict.

因此，这两件事是相互冲突的。

Hiring managers or leaders or committees are making hiring decisions.

真正做出招聘决策的是招聘经理、领导者或委员会。

And I feel like the recruiters goal is really about helping provide confidence to that hiring manager to make the right decision.

我认为，招聘人员的目标，是帮助那位招聘经理有信心做出正确的决策。

They're a confidence engine. They're not a decision-making engine.

他们是信心引擎，而不是决策引擎。

And so I see a lot of companies where they um they lose the thread is when they essentially hand over the function of recruiting the act of recruiting to a function of recruiting.

因此，我看到很多公司偏离重点，是因为它们本质上把招聘这项职能、招聘这个行为，交给了一个招聘职能部门。

Right? And so no one should care more about a hire, no one gets the joy or the pain of a good and bad hire than that hiring manager and that team.

因此，没有人应该比那位招聘经理和团队更在乎一次招聘，也没有人会像他们一样，从一次好的招聘或坏的招聘中感受到那种喜悦或痛苦。

So why then is a recruiter or recruiting organization holding that accountability when they are actually don't they don't have they don't have the decision-making let alone the benefits or or pain or cost of a good or bad hire.

那么，为什么要由招聘人员或招聘团队代表组织承担那份责任？实际上，他们并没有决策权，更不用说享有一次好招聘带来的收益，或承担一次坏招聘带来的痛苦与成本。

I want to come back to this uh it's like a different funnel but I'll call it a funnel. Would you still describe it as a funnel but the funnel of non-dooms or another term cuz it's still kind of a funnel?

我想回到这个话题。它像是另一种漏斗，但我还是会称它为漏斗。你也会把它描述成一个漏斗吗？只是它不是“厄运漏斗”，或者换一种说法，因为它仍然有点像一个漏斗。

Yeah. Yeah, there could be they not all funnels are bad so yeah, they're all good.

是的，可能是这样。并非所有漏斗都是坏的，所以它们都还不错。

talent density.

人才密度。

Yeah.

是的。

So coming back to the how to discover the best people uh luckily there's this incredible post out there about how Coda approaches hiring by Brie Wolfson that uh was very helpful in helping me prep for this talk and another tactic that she shared of how Coda finds the best people is there's a Slack channel called hiring ideas and people on the team just share here's someone we might want to hire.

那么，回到如何发现最优秀人才这个话题。幸运的是，有一篇非常精彩的文章，讲的是 Coda 如何招聘，由 Brie Wolfson 撰写。它对我准备这次访谈很有帮助。她还分享了另一种关于 Coda 如何找到最优秀人才的方法：他们有一个叫做 hiring ideas 的 Slack 频道，团队成员会在其中分享：“这里有个人，我们可能想招聘”，以及招聘所带来的痛苦或成本。

It's super active. Uh you know, we could pull it up right now. Um there's someone we want to let's see what people [laughter] are Yeah, maybe we can get some audience input on it.

它超级活跃。呃，你知道，我们现在就可以打开看看。嗯，有个人我们想——看看大家[笑声] 在说什么对，也许我们可以听听一些观众的想法。

Um so so the the general gist is someone will come across something impressive, a uh a product, a post, um what overheard at a barbecue and they'll drop that person's profile or that X post into the in hiring channel and it becomes a rallying effect around ooh, I've heard of them. I know here's how we get to get here's what I think what is compelling to them. You almost like create this quick like strategy of

嗯，所以大致来说，就是有人会发现一些令人印象深刻的东西，比如呃，一个产品、一篇帖子，嗯，或者在烧烤聚会上偶然听到的事，然后他们会把那个人的个人资料或那条 X 帖子发到招聘频道里，然后这会带动大家一起行动，“哦，我听说过他们。我知道——这是我们可以怎么联系上他们；我觉得什么会吸引他们。”你几乎会迅速制定出这样一种

how we might engage this person.

与这个人接触的策略。

And imagine working at a place where the company just is wired that way where people like are excited and enthusiastic and like love the thrill of the hunt and like to go want to work with great people. And so we're just like very fortunate to have that as like a ongoing tailwind.

想象一下，在这样一个地方工作：整家公司天生就是这样运转的，大家都对此感到兴奋、充满热情，喜欢寻猎的刺激，也喜欢去和优秀的人一起工作。所以我们真的非常幸运，能够拥有这样一股持续不断的顺风。

Um but that's like that was like an early expectation, if you will. Um an early um almost like I'm going to say it's almost like um social credibility in the company to be able to like surface someone who is great and then people come in and help out and try to get them into the process. So as we're creating like that's like such a good like we are not

嗯，但那就像是一个早期的期望，可以这么说。嗯，一个早期的嗯，几乎就像是我会说，这几乎就像是嗯在公司里建立起一种社会信誉，从而能够找到一个非常优秀的人然后大家会加入进来帮忙试着让他们进入招聘流程。所以，当我们创造出类似这种特别好的情况时，就像我们并没有

initiating that. We're not dropping in a profile does anyone know this person?

主动发起这件事。我们并不是直接丢进一个候选人资料，问“有人认识这个人吗？”

This is and uh you know, non-recruiting folks in the company uh dropping in ideas and then the company rallying behind it.

这其实是呃，公司里不做招聘的同事呃，提出想法，然后全公司一起支持这件事。

Amazing. So this is just a really good way to just if we zoom out again, the way most companies hire, there's this funnel people apply, people refer and they kind of work through and then you try to reach out and kind of work through and pick a few people at the bottom and your point there is this is like not the top people because they're not going to apply to you, they're not going to make it through the funnel. You don't

太棒了。所以这其实是一个非常好的方式。如果我们再一次从宏观角度来看，大多数公司的招聘方式，都有这么一个漏斗：有人申请，有人推荐，他们在其中层层推进，然后你试着主动联系，再层层筛选最后从底部挑出几个人。而你的观点是，这其实是不是最顶尖的人，因为他们不会来申请你们，他们不会通过这个漏斗。很多时候，你甚至都不

even know what you're hiring for a lot of times.

知道自己到底在招什么样的人。

Right. Correct. Correct. And but you know, by the way like, you know, all the hiring ideas aren't always great ideas.

对，没错，没错。不过你知道，顺便说一句，所有的招聘想法并不总是好想法。

They aren't always right for us, but it is becomes this almost like tangential injection into the hiring process that um is often um a great outcome.

它们也并不总是适合我们，但它会成为一种近乎旁路式的对招聘流程的注入，而这嗯，往往会嗯，带来很好的结果。

And so just to uh maybe make very clear how different this approach is is the opposite. It's figure out who are the best top 50 people for this role in the world and then relentlessly pursue them.

那么，为了呃，更清楚地说明这种方法有多么不同，这种方法其实是相反的：先找出全世界最适合这个职位的前 50 个人，然后坚持不懈地追求他们。对他们来说。

Mhm. Yeah.

嗯哼。对。

So let's talk about that part of it. How to actually relentlessly pursue people.

那我们来聊聊这一部分。如何真正坚持不懈地追求这些人。

What are some tactics and stories there of just how you convince these top people to actually talk to you and then join?

在这方面有哪些策略和故事，比如你们如何说服这些顶尖人才真正愿意和你们聊聊，然后加入？

Yeah. Yeah, and I think one of the things you said a few minutes ago is well, hey this can be a very slow process.

对，对。我觉得其中一个你几分钟前说到的点是，就是，这可能是一个非常缓慢的过程。

Right? Um and if you're at like a zero point, your your day zero, that can feel like a slow It can feel like a slow burn. But imagine over multiple days, you're actually planting all of these seeds with potential top 50 people, they're going to come to harvest at different rates. But you got to plant the seeds. You got to start. And because it will take weeks for some, months for others. I have

对吧？嗯，如果你处于零你的第零天，这可能会让人感觉像是一个缓慢的过程。它可能感觉像是一个缓慢的积累。但想象一下，在多天时间里，你实际上正在播下所有这些种子给潜在的前 50 名人才，他们会在不同时间迎来收获。但你得播下这些种子。你得开始行动。因为有些人需要几周有些人则需要几个月。我有

stories of years a year of we've worked on on candidates.

花了好几年的案例有些候选人我们跟进了一年。

And but you have to start the clock on that. And you And so how we think about this like relentless pursuit is you'll often reach, you know, one step is just getting them into a conversation, getting a response, getting some kind of engagement.

但你必须开始为此计时。而且你——所以我们如何看待这种不懈追求：你往往会联系对方，你知道，第一步只是让他们进入一场对话，获得回复，获得某种形式的互动。

Um, but most people will tell you if you get them, it's like not good timing.

嗯，但大多数人会告诉你，如果你联系到他们，他们会说，现在时机不太好。

Here's all the reasons I can't do it.

这里有各种我没法做这件事的理由。

And you're like, "Hey, I'm not I'm not asking you to interview.

而你会说：“嘿，我不是——我不是要你来面试。

I'm not asking you to consider a role.

我不是要你考虑一个职位。

I'm asking for a next conversation."

我只是想进行下一次交流。”

And so when you say, "Hey, you know, it's not really a good timing for me right now, maybe uh in the late fall." You're like, "Hey, so I totally try what's great. Like can But also, can you come by for um you want to come by for a coffee and see the office? Right? Can you Can I introduce you to this other person on the team who's really fascinated by your work?

所以当你说：“嘿，你知道，现在对我来说时机确实不太好也许呃，深秋再说。”你会说：“嘿，我完全理解，这很好。比如，能不能——不过，你能不能过来，嗯，你想不想过来喝杯咖啡，看看办公室？对吧？你能不能——我能不能介绍你认识团队里的另一个人，他对你的工作非常感兴趣？

Can you go chat?" But And so you know it's not it Let's say it is true they can't join till late fall, that doesn't mean you're not connecting them and having conversations on a weekly basis and working that piece. And the it it can only move it forward. By doing nothing and actually talking to them in the late fall, at best, you get them even if they're still interested then or someone else has them

你们可以先聊一聊。”因此，即便他们确实要到深秋才能加入，也不意味着在此之前不需要保持联系和交流，不需要每周持续推进。持续沟通只会推动事情向前发展。如果什么都不做，直到深秋才与他们交谈，那么最好的情况是，如果他们那时仍然感兴趣，你还能招到他们；否则，他们可能已经被别人

grabbed them.

招走了。

So we think about this continual touchpoint approach to them to getting them into process.

因此，我们会采用持续触达的方式，推动他们进入招聘流程。

Um, but that could again, we're willing to do that over days, weeks, months, and sometimes years.

但同样，我们愿意为此投入几天、几周、几个月，有时甚至几年。

When you reach out to someone and mention working at Cursor, now it's part of SpaceX. It's like, oh, this is interesting and cool. And you know, it's like, you never know, maybe it'll work out someday. A lot of companies, and you've worked with other companies that are not as interesting of a brand and as successful. Is there any advice for folks to get someone over the line to even talk that works? And you know, I

当你联系某个人时，提到在 Cursor 工作，如今这已经成了 SpaceX 的一部分。大家会觉得这件事很有意思，也很酷。而且谁也不知道，也许某天就能成。很多公司，以及你合作过的其他公司，品牌没有那么有趣，也没有那么成功。对于让别人至少愿意聊一聊，有什么有效的建议吗？还有，我

imagine it's all very particular and you want to be just any advice there.

想这些都很具体。你想要……这方面有什么建议吗？

Yeah, I think it's really spending a lot of time up front to get a sense of what could be uh engaging for them.

我认为关键在于前期投入大量时间，了解什么因素可能会让他们感兴趣。

So, who might that be and what might that topic be?

也就是说，可能由谁来联系，以及切入的话题可能是什么。

And so, there's very There are There are a number of um excellent people in the world who aren't on any platform.

确实有一些非常出色的人，他们不在任何平台上。

There's no information about them. But most you can get a couple nuggets. We spend a lot of time here thinking about who can create a warm intro to that person.

关于他们的信息很少。但在大多数情况下，你总能找到一些线索。我们会花很多时间思考，谁能够通过一层熟人引荐联系到那个人。

Almost as much effort goes into that than it does the actual messaging and the right because if you get the right person, that accelerates it.

我们在这方面投入的精力，几乎和实际撰写信息一样多，因为如果找对了联系人，事情的进展就会加快。

Right? And once someone's ignored one thing, it's much easier for them to ignore the second and third.

而且，一旦有人忽略了第一条信息，对他们来说，忽略第二条和第三条就容易得多。

But if you get the first one right, you like condense that that that activation timeline and effort.

但如果第一步做对了，就能压缩激活周期，减少所需投入的精力。

I've heard that you often say caring is free.

我听说你经常说，关心是不花钱的。

Yeah.

对。

Talk about that cuz it feels like that connects throughout this entire process.

请谈谈这一点，因为它似乎贯穿了整个过程。

Yeah, I I think there's like all kind of tactics out there that are of varying degrees of cost. But out caring other companies that like when I've built recruiting teams, that's something that we've always talked about. Like, we can care more about that candidate than anyone else. That That's in us. That's within us. We can do that. And I think it hit like um over the history of time, when you look at candidate satisfaction

我认为外面有各种成本不同的策略。但比其他公司更关心候选人，是我组建招聘团队时一直会谈论的事情。比如，我们可以比任何人都更关心那位候选人。没有谁比我们更在乎。这是我们自己能够做到的，也在我们的能力范围内。我们做得到。纵观以往经验，当你查看候选人的满意度

scores, the number one thing that's always there is the company generally wanted me.

评分时，排在第一的通常是一种感受：这家公司总体上非常想要我。

They generally like like they made it feel like I belonged there. And so, the more that we can care for our candidates and demonstrate that, I think it's an unfair advantage and it's in all of us.

候选人通常会觉得，自己好像真的属于那里。因此，我们越能关心候选人并展现出这一点，我认为这越是一种不公平优势，而且我们所有人都能做到。

And so it that is like an effort and that is a extra step type of thing. It's the extra uh intentionality that you take that I think um in a very somewhat feeling like transactional business like recruiting, if you're doing this like step-by-step funnel of doom, you kind of get caught up in the steps. You get caught up in the numbers game. I need to reach out to 100 to get to 20.

这确实需要付出努力，也需要多走一步。它是一种额外投入的用心。在招聘这样某种程度上容易显得交易导向的行业里，如果你遵循这种一步一步的“厄运漏斗”，就很容易被流程困住，陷入数字游戏：我必须联系100个人，才能得到20个回应。

I need to have 10 hiring manager screens to get four on-site. You know, you you get caught up in the numbers and you lose the human element.

我必须进行10次招聘经理初筛，才能让4个人进入现场面试。你会陷入这些数字之中，然后失去人性化的部分。

You're looking for the one. You know, so I I tell remind my team like we're trying to hire one person for this role here, not 10.

你要找的是那一个人。因此，我会提醒我的团队：我们要为这个岗位招一个人，不是10个。

So don't get caught up in the 10.

所以不要被那10个人困住。

Get focus on the one.

要专注于那一个人。

That is such a big reframe in this way of thinking. As you said, instead of this funnel of we need 200 people at the top to get one at the bottom, you're just like, here's the 50 people that would be the the best 50 in the world for this. We just need one of these 50.

这种思维方式的重新框定非常重要。正如你所说，不再把它看作一个漏斗：我们需要在顶部有200个人，才能在底部得到一个人。你会转而认为，这里有50个人，他们是全世界最适合做这件事的50个人。我们只需要这50人中的一个。

It feels a lot more com- a lot more doable.

这样感觉更容易，也更可行。

And we're building hopefully we're building relationships with dozens of other those that could be So when you talk about this being slow, we're planting seeds. Planting seeds, we're planting seeds. And I think the other thing that often happens when you kind of get into this funnel of doom mentality is I think you become overly consistent in your hiring approach. And we are very comfortable with bespoke

而且我们正在建立关系，也希望能与几十位其他可能合适的人建立关系。所以，当你说这件事进展很慢时，我们其实是在播种。我们不断地播种。我认为，另一件经常发生的事是，一旦进入这种“厄运漏斗”式思维，招聘方法就会变得过于标准化。而我们非常愿意接受量身定制的

and ad hoc hiring.

以及临时性的招聘方式。

That doesn't mean we don't have like similar stages for consi- But but like who that next conversation is, what they you know, might focus on. I think we get a little robotic sometimes in recruiting with that. And we have like So a lot of companies as they get into like higher volume hiring, they might like, "Hey, we have a pool of these interviewers who can do this type of interview."

这并不意味着我们没有相对一致的阶段，但例如下一次谈话应由谁来进行、对方可能会重点关注什么，我们都会视情况安排。我认为，在招聘这件事上，我们有时会变得有些机械化。许多公司进入更高招聘量的阶段后，可能会说：“我们有一组面试官可以进行这类面试。”

And they just like let fate decide. They let availability decide who has that next conversation. But you know, the savvy recruiter or the savvy hiring manager is like, "Ooh, they mentioned this thing.

于是他们便听任安排，让可用性决定由谁来进行下一次谈话。但精明的招聘人员或招聘经理会想：“他们提到了这件事。

Who on our team has that shared interest in that pool, right? Can we like be a little bit more prescriptive and can we orchestrate a much better candidate experience by being taking the extra thoughtful step of who might have a better conversation together?

我们团队中谁与这个人才池中的这一点有共同兴趣？我们能否更有针对性一些，能否通过更用心的安排，创造好得多的候选人体验？我们需要多花一点心思，考虑哪些人更适合彼此交谈。

It's so interesting hearing just how important that initial contact is for the rest of the process and how much of this is for future seed planting versus even immediately.

听你这么说很有意思。最初的接触竟然如此重要，并会影响整个后续流程；而其中很大一部分是在为未来播种，而不只是着眼于当下。

Yeah, I feel like so we put so much energy to the onsite interview, which I totally get, but honestly the most important one is that hiring manager first conversation.

是的。我认为我们在现场面试上投入了太多精力，我完全理解这一点，但坦率地说，最重要的是招聘经理的第一次谈话。

And so it kind of feels like this like 50/50 like hey, half the people you talk to hire manager should come on and like we kind of like I think we under estimate the importance of it cuz this is like who you're going to work with.

所以大致可以理解为，候选人聊过的人中，有一半应该由招聘经理出面。我认为我们低估了这件事的重要性，因为招聘经理是候选人将来要共事的人。

This is the person who should care this person is going to make the hiring decision and so they should be asking the most important questions. They should be getting pulling out the most important motivators from that candidate and I feel like we sometimes maybe we put it into a 30-minute thing often.

招聘经理才是候选人真正应该关心的人，也会作出招聘决定，因此招聘经理应该提出最重要的问题。他们应该从候选人那里挖掘出最重要的驱动力，而我觉得我们有时常常只把这次谈话安排成30分钟。

It's like 30 minutes and it feels like so important to the rest of of that process.

这只是30分钟，但对后续整个流程而言，却显得极其重要。

Especially if instead of we just need this funnel and work through a bunch of people, it's this is one of the 50 in the world that could be the best for this.

尤其是，如果我们的思路不是只需要走完整个漏斗、筛选一大群人，而是把这个人看作全世界最可能适合这份工作的50人之一。

You might meet three times, right? You might meet four times as a hiring manager versus before that person actually is like you know, fully in process.

你们可能会见三次。作为招聘经理，你甚至可能会见四次，而不是在那个人正式进入流程之前只进行一次接触。

The way Breed described this in her piece is that you treat hiring as the atomic unit of hiring is the person, not the job spec and not the role.

Breed 在她的文章中描述这一点时说，应该把招聘的原子单位视为人，而不是职位说明，也不是岗位。

Correct. And I think that so that makes it incredibly frustrating imagine for my team because you're like oh, what's the process you know, and you're like well, like you know, it's like at this it's like um it's like almost like a decision tree.

没错。而且我认为，这会让我的团队感到极其沮丧。可以想象，团队会问：“流程是什么？”然后你会说：“在这个阶段，它几乎像一棵决策树。”

It could go many different ways based off of this conversation and so but when you are not caught into the numbers game, it feels a little bit less scary when you're really focused on how do we get that person here versus how do we are they the right person for that job?

它可能会根据这次对话走向许多不同方向。但如果你没有陷入数字游戏，当你真正专注于如何把那个人招进来，而不是判断他们是否适合那份工作时，这件事就没有那么可怕。

And because they're on this list, they're innately very popular and in demand. Is there anything else that works for getting them excited to talk and interested other than you know, soft warm intro things you shared.

而且因为他们在这份名单上，他们本身就非常受欢迎，也很抢手。除了那些非正式的暖心引荐方式之外，还有什么办法能让他们愿意并且兴奋地交流、产生兴趣？

Yeah, I mean, we've done lots of like tactics I think to get them involved. I mean, one thing I just love is breaking bread. Having a meal with someone is one of the most human and leveling things that you can do.

是的。我们用过很多策略来让他们参与进来。我特别喜欢做的一件事，就是一起吃饭。与某人一起用餐，是最具人情味、也最能拉平关系的事情之一。

Um you you know, you sharing a meal uh across the table is just a disarming act and a joining act.

隔着餐桌一起吃饭，是一种能让人卸下防备的行为，也是一种建立联结的行为。

That I think is just so important. So, that could be a coffee, it could be a lunch, it could be it it you know, it doesn't be super formal, but I just think it is this humanizing activity that um I think is really important. So, we try to we try to center around food and drink as much as possible.

我认为这非常重要。所以，可以是喝一杯咖啡，也可以是吃一顿午餐；它不必特别正式，但我认为这是一项能让人感受到人情味的活动，确实非常重要。因此，我们会尽可能围绕食物和饮品来安排。

I think we've done other things I think are very useful, which is like if they are one of these 50 people, they might be somewhat famous or well-respected, they probably have an expertise, having them come in and give a talk to the team. Having them come in and do like a fun side project.

我认为我们还做过其他一些有用的事。比如，如果他们是这50人中的一位，他们可能有一定知名度，或备受尊重，也大概在某方面有专长。我们会请他们来给团队做一场分享，或者让他们参与一个有趣的业余项目。

They like something these people they love they love to kind of like share and like learn and they're curious and um and so that that but also it's like it demonstrates increased interactivity between the two teams around quality and kind of gives them this like realistic preview of being there. We try to play home games as much as we can, bringing them into the office.

这些人热爱自己的领域，喜欢分享，也喜欢学习，他们充满好奇心。因此，这种方式不仅能促成参与，也能展现两个团队之间围绕质量展开的更强互动，并让他们获得一种更真实的工作预览。我们尽量利用主场优势，尽可能把他们带到办公室来。

But we also understand some of the folks like early on might want to go to a neutral site of a coffee shop or something too.

但我们也理解，有些人在早期可能希望在咖啡馆之类的中立地点见面。

But we try to play home games when we can.

但只要可以，我们就尽量利用主场优势。

Cuz you have the power of the team.

因为你拥有团队的力量。

But you have the power of and so, you know, one analogy I think about is like when you sometimes when you walk on when some people are considering university early in their lives, you kind of walk onto a campus and you get that feel in your gut.

但你们拥有一种力量。我想到一个类比：有些人在年轻时考虑上大学，走进某所校园时，内心会产生一种感受。

You know, you can't really describe it, it's just like, "Ooh, this feels like home."

这种感受其实很难形容，就像在想：“这里感觉像家。”

We want people to feel that when they kind of walk into the offices of Cursor and like that is like a priceless moment. And by the By the also like a it can be like a um a defining moment. It also could not hit. And that's it's good to like suss that out early, too. But for a lot of people, it it does hit and we we like that a moment.

我们希望人们走进 Cursor 的办公室时，也能产生这种感觉。那是无价的时刻。顺便说一句，这也可能是一个决定性的时刻；也可能没有效果。没有效果也很好，因为尽早弄清楚也是好事。但对很多人来说，这种感觉确实会出现，我们很喜欢这样的时刻。

This uh resonates so deeply with early days Airbnb. I remember Joe Gebbia had the saying, "Just get them in the elevator."

这让我强烈联想到 Airbnb 的早期。我记得 Joe Gebbia 有句口头禅：“只要让他们进电梯。”

And this is because the office was on the second floor of this building. You had to like go in this elevator to get in and that was the whole strategy, just get them in the elevator.

这是因为他们的办公室在那栋楼的二楼。必须坐那部电梯才能进去，所以整个策略就是：只要让他们进电梯。

Yeah. Yeah. Um that was that was like more than half the battle.

对。那就相当于赢了一大半。

Uh along these lines of breaking bread and uh Homecourt, I know uh this might be one of the reasons you guys have a Cafe Cursor right right there near the office, which was and now it's like happening all over the world.

沿着一起吃饭和主场优势这个话题，我知道，这可能也是你们在办公室附近开 Cafe Cursor 的原因。当时是这样，现在又在全世界各地发生。

Uh I think Ben leads this work, but it there's all these cafes popping up all over the world.

我想 Ben 负责这项工作，但这样的咖啡馆正在世界各地不断出现。

Yeah, I think it's been a interesting um obviously it's it's very much focused on the product and the the user, but he and that team have done a really good job of taking that vibe and putting into a moment. And if you've been in the Cursor office, it almost feels like you're in a um Hogwarts library. It's very warm and soft and like but cafes bring that energy and and as well.

对，我觉得这一直是件很有意思的事。显然，它非常聚焦于产品和用户，但他和那个团队在这方面做得非常好，把那种氛围带入了一个具体场景。如果你去过 Cursor 的办公室，那里几乎会让你感觉像是在一座霍格沃茨的图书馆里。那里很温暖，也很柔和，而咖啡馆带来了那种能量以及这些元素。

Uh and so we've tried to kind of lift and you like lift that and drop that in uh really around the world.

所以我们试着把它稍微提炼出来，将这种氛围提取出来，并放到真正遍布世界各地的地方。

And there's also a lot of chalkboards at the office.

而且办公室里还有很多黑板。办公室里。

A lot of chalkboards. It's like has this like some like It's like again like this like disarming warm feel that I think really kind of exudes our like Midwest vibes. That is like kind of sometimes how I describe um Cursor. You know, very hard working, very ambitious, but you know, at the same time the work speaks for itself and understated as well. And so uh I think a lot of our office helps uh evoke those vibes, too.

有很多黑板。它带有一种感觉：再次说，是一种让人卸下防备的温暖感。我觉得这在某种程度上确实散发着我们的中西部氛围。这也是我有时描述 Cursor 的方式：非常勤奋，非常有雄心，同时让工作成果自己说话，也很低调。所以我觉得我们的办公室在很大程度上也有助于唤起那种氛围。

This episode is brought to you by Mercury. Radically different banking loved by over 300,000 entrepreneurs. And now with command. I've been a customer of Mercury's for over 6 years. I have never once thought about leaving.

本期节目由Mercury 赞助。Mercury 提供彻底不同的银行服务，深受超过 300,000 名创业者喜爱，而且现在推出了 Command。我已经成为Mercury 的客户超过 6 年，从未想过要离开。

Mercury is basically what happens when banking is built by product people, not by bankers. They make it so easy, dare I say fun, to send [music] invoices, move money around, set up virtual cards for folks on my team. Does your bank have an API, a terminal [music] native CLI, or an AI ready MCP server? I don't think so. And just recently they launched Command, a conversational interface built directly into Mercury, which acts

Mercury 基本上展现了当银行服务由产品人而不是银行家打造时会是什么样子。他们让发送 [music] 发票、转移资金、为我团队成员设置虚拟卡变得如此简单，甚至可以说很有趣。你的银行有API、终端 [music] 原生 CLI，或者适配 AI 的 MCP 服务器吗？我想没有。而且就在最近，他们推出了Command，一个直接内置在 Mercury 中的对话式界面，可以充当

as your financial operator. I've been using Command to transfer money around, to figure out what categories I've been spending the most money in, analyze [music] my cash flows, and just today I used it to find out how much I've made from a specific sponsor over the past year. I just [music] asked, "How much have I made from X over the past year?"

你的财务运营助手。我一直在使用 Command 调拨资金，了解我在哪些类别上花的钱最多，分析[music] 我的现金流。就在今天，我还用它查询过去一年里我从某个特定赞助商那里赚了多少钱。我刚刚 [music] 问：“过去一年里，我从 X 那里赚了多少钱？”

10 seconds later I have an answer. It is so freaking cool. Visit mercury.com to learn more and apply online in minutes.

10 秒后，我就得到了答案。真的非常酷。访问 mercury.com 了解更多，并在几分钟内在线申请。

Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC-insured bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and Column N/A, members FDIC.

Mercury 是一家金融科技公司，不是受 FDIC 保险保障的银行。银行服务由 Choice Financial Group和 Column N/A 提供，两者均为 FDIC 成员。

Okay, so if people have been following along, we're working our way through the funnel. This kind of my strategy here.

如果大家一直在跟着听，我们正在一步步走过这个漏斗。这算是我的策略。

So we've talked about how to kind of figure out what you're looking for, figure out who these people are, how to get them talking to you.

我们已经聊过如何弄清楚你在找什么，如何弄清楚这些人是谁，以及如何让他们愿意与你交流。

So you got them in the interview stage.

现在，他们已经进入面试阶段。

What are some things you've learned about how to increase your signal on the person and identify if they're a good fit and someone you want to make an offer to.

关于如何提高你对这个人的判断信号，并识别他们是否适合这个岗位、是否是一个很好的匹配，以及是否是你想发出录用邀请的人，你学到了哪些方法？

Yeah, some of it's a little fundamental, which is um research has shown that work samples are the highest predictor of success at a company. But yet most companies are still spending a lot of time doing one-to-one across the table assessments. And so uh you know, I think we are famously known for doing long on-sites

对，有些方面其实比较基础。研究表明，工作样本是预测一个人在公司是否成功的最强指标。但大多数公司仍然花很多时间进行隔着桌子的一对一评估。所以我觉得，我们以为某些岗位安排较长的现场

experiences for some of our roles.

体验而闻名。

Um so where they do a project and they get work to side-by-side. So that gives us a very strong signal. It also gives them the candidate tremendous signal.

他们会做一个项目，并与人并肩工作。这会给我们非常强的信号，也会给候选人非常多的信息。

And so I think this is where most companies get it wrong on the on-site.

因此我认为，这正是大多数公司在现场环节做错的地方。

they're almost always buying.

他们几乎总是单方面索取。

This is like we are assessing, we're extracting information. We're not giving much back to the candidate. And I'm a big fan of the power of self-selection. And self-selection really good self-selection serves really good inputs and data. And so we want that experience with the candidate to feel more two-way than most.

这就像是在评估候选人、提取信息，而我们并没有给候选人太多回馈。我非常相信自我筛选的力量。良好的自我筛选会带来非常有价值的信息和数据。因此，我们希望候选人的这段体验比多数情况更具双向性。

So we really think about crafting that on site experience through who they might meet. We talked about that. We really clearly handpicking who they might meet for those interviews. We We do a lot of work sample and project type of work to give us good signal, but we also really curate who's greeting them.

因此，我们会认真思考如何打造这种现场体验，包括候选人会与谁互动、可能会见到谁。我们讨论过这一点。我们会非常明确地精心挑选候选人在那些面试中可能会见到的人。我们会安排很多工作样本和项目类型的任务，以获得有效信号，同时也会精心安排由谁来接待候选人。

Who's sitting beside them for lunch.

午餐时由谁坐在候选人身边。

Like we always try to put it around a meal, a dinner, or lunch, or a breakfast. And everything is really curated to make that as high quality experience for them and get them the data. But we you know, but also us getting data from people that we feel like are the most going to connect with that person.

例如，我们总会尽量把它安排在一顿正餐、晚餐、午餐或早餐的时间。一切都会经过精心安排，使其成为尽可能高质量的体验，并让候选人获得所需的信息。同时，我们也会从那些最有可能与这位候选人建立联系的人那里获取信息。

Who runs point on this sort of experience? Is it a recruiter or is it the hiring manager?

这类体验通常由谁主导？是招聘人员，还是招聘经理？

Um I would say I think it's the recruiter um primarily as the quarterback, but they're pulling lots of levers. Um and so the hiring manager is probably going to have the most insight into some of those people.

我认为，招聘人员主要充当四分卫的角色，但他们会调动很多资源。因此，招聘经理可能对其中一些人有最深入的了解。

Our recruiting coordinators uh are tremendous and I think we probably and they they do a lot of this um hosting with us as well.

我们的招聘协调员非常出色，我认为他们也会与我们一起承担很多这类接待工作。

Um and so our recruiting coordinators of course do some scheduling, but they're probably doing more of this candidate shepherding. So imagine a candidate was with us for a day or two, there's lots of like moving pieces and helping them move from a workstation where they might be doing a project into lunch, back to that, helping them get their environment set up. You know, so um there's a lot of people in play. We

因此，我们的招聘协调员当然会做一些日程安排，但他们更多可能是在负责候选人的全程引导。可以设想，候选人与我们相处一两天，会有很多需要协调的环节：帮助他们从可能正在做项目的工作站转到午餐地点，再回到工作站，并帮助他们完成环境设置。因此，参与其中的人很多。

ask our quarterback and our quarterback to be our recruiter to be the quarterback, but a lot of the you know, the insights come from hiring managers and execution with the coordinator, too.

我们让四分卫，也就是招聘人员，担任统筹角色；但许多洞见来自招聘经理，执行也离不开协调员。

It's interesting just how much of the experience and process changes with this worldview of the every person we are talking to is very special and is they're very rare and these are the best uh for this role. And so it it's clear how much of it trickles down into thinking deeply about every touchpoint along the journey versus the typical journey.

有意思的是，这种体验和流程会因这样一种世界观而发生很大变化：我们正在交谈的每一个人都非常特别，他们非常难得，也是最优秀、最适合这个职位的人。因此，很明显，相较于典型流程，这种观念会在多大程度上渗透到对整个过程中每个接触点的深入思考之中。

And imagine that you have a teams and employee base to like understand that well, they went through it. So you get over this like tipping point moment with the company where they had that experience.

可以想象，如果有一支团队和员工群体能够充分理解这一点，因为他们自己经历过这一切，公司就会跨过一个临界点。在那个时刻，他们已经拥有过那样的经历。

So they recognize, acknowledge and now they're part of How fun is that? Right?

因此，他们会认识到并承认这一点，而现在他们也成为其中的一部分。这很有意思。

They had a great experience, now they get to help deliver that for this next batch of people.

他们曾有过很棒的经历，现在可以帮助为下一批人创造这样的体验。

So you kind of create this like flywheel opportunity once you get kind of over that initial hump.

因此，一旦你们在某种程度上形成了这样的飞轮机会，并越过最初那道坎，情况就会不同。

I just remembered actually, I had a friend applying for a job at Crossover and he said it was the best candidate experience he's ever had.

我刚想起来，我有个朋友申请过 Crossover 的工作，他说那是他经历过的最好的候选人体验。

That's amazing.

太好了。

remembered that.

我想起了这件事。

[snorts] And so So by definition, we thought about like doing a lot of um scoping of really great people. Not all of them are going to be a fit for us by their choice or ours.

[哼笑]因此，按定义来说，我们曾考虑广泛甄别真正优秀的人才。并不是所有人都会适合我们，无论是因为他们自己的选择，还是因为我们的选择。

But every one of them can walk away as a net promoter.

但他们每一个人在离开时都可以成为净推荐者。

And by the again, by definition, they're some of the best. Those promoters weigh more and count more than others because they're influential, they're great, they're known to be good. And so they may never come back to us, but they might tell you who now tells his audience or they might tell you who then you you mention something at a barbecue and like now it becomes this like groundswell and you start to build a little stronger magnet

而且，按定义来说，他们都是最优秀的人才之一。这些推荐者的分量和影响力比其他人更大，因为他们有影响力，也很优秀，大家都知道他们很厉害。因此，他们或许永远不会再回到我们这里，但他们可能会告诉你，而你又会告诉那些会向其受众分享的人；或者他们可能告诉你，然后你在烧烤聚会上提起这件事，于是它会形成一种自下而上的声势，而你也开始打造一个更强的磁铁。

and that activation becomes a little bit less hard if you do that well.

如果你把这件事做好，这种激活工作就会变得不那么困难。

Mhm, absolutely.

完全同意。

Uh the work trial piece, I saw an interview with Michael Truell talking about this and he said how he they tried to get rid of it because it's obviously adds a lot of load and and some people don't want to be doing these things and he said that it just totally tanked their signal and they had to bring it back.

关于工作试用这一块，我看到一篇 Michael Truell 谈论此事的访谈。他说，他们曾尝试取消它，因为这显然会增加很多负担，而且有些人不想做这些事。他说，这彻底拉低了他们的信号质量，他们不得不把它恢复回来。

Yeah, it's a huge commitment, you can imagine, of time.

是的，这是一项巨大的投入。可以想象，这需要投入很多时间。

Uh Um but if talent is your number one thing, then you know, that is a good investment of time to do it. You know, when we all have a role to play in recruiting at the company. Um not everyone is like carved out or you know, best to do work trial work, but like some are. You know, some but some can do the lunch. Some can do the greet. Some you know, so so there's like lots of different ways that people

不过，如果人才是你最看重的事情，那么这就是一项值得投入时间的工作。当公司所有人都在招聘中承担各自的角色时，并不是每个人都适合或擅长负责试岗工作，但有些人适合。有些人可以负责午餐，有些人可以负责接待。因此，人们可以通过很多不同方式

can play a role. Um but yeah, when we ran that experiment, um you know, cuz it is it is quite expensive. It is also a big ask of candidates.

发挥作用。不过，当我们进行那项实验时，它确实相当昂贵。对候选人来说，这也是很高的要求。

We really struggled to have confidence in our decision. Again, this is this is a confidence building function.

我们很难对自己的决定建立信心。再次强调，这是一个建立信心的环节。

And so um we are excited to bring it back.

所以，我们很高兴能把它重新引入。

So good learning there is it's like if you are not doing this, you're lacking significant signal.

所以，一个很好的经验是：如果不这样做，就会缺少重要信号。

Possibly. Yeah, I think so. You know, and I think there I don't think there's a lot of maximums or absolutes in this business.

有可能。是的，我也这么认为。而且我认为，这个行业里并没有很多最高准则或绝对结论。

Um but I think for a lot of companies, it's hard to think of a better way than you know, doing side-by-side real work to get those signals. Obviously, some of it you know, in this case is like a technical signal, but imagine the amount of like core values and uh collaboration and other things you get like other signals you get over a stretch of time that can be um arguably more important than the specific

但我觉得，对很多公司来说，很难想出比肩并肩完成真实工作更好的方式来获得这些信号。当然，在这个案例中，其中一些是技术方面的信号；但想想看，在一段时间内，你还能获得多少关于核心价值观、协作能力以及其他方面的信号，而这些信号可以说可能比具体的

technical skill.

技术技能更重要。

What do you do for like PMs or like I don't know, go to market or ops people?

那么，对于产品经理，或者市场拓展、运营人员呢？

Is there something like that?

有类似的做法吗？

Yeah, we have a version of this across.

有，我们在各个岗位上都有某种版本。

And so uh the go-to-market um team does like a challenge where there's like a a problem they work through like a challenge together, like a challenging customer and things like that. And that's like often like one-to-one with the hiring manager.

市场拓展团队会做一种挑战，其中会有一个需要他们解决的问题，例如共同完成一项挑战，应对一个棘手的客户之类的情境。这个环节通常是和招聘经理一对一进行。

Um product uh does a similar um like project type together as well.

产品团队也会做类似的项目类型挑战。

So we have like versions of that that I feel like are tight traded to the function, but also the role and things like that as well. So we try Try to be like uh uniform across this um cuz these functions are very different.

所以我们有一些这样的版本。我认为它们与职能紧密相关，也与岗位等因素相关。因此，我们会尽量在这些方面保持一致，因为这些职能之间的差异非常大。

One of the classic criticisms with the work trial is you're doing work for the company and it's like I would just solve problems for you for free.

对工作试用的一项经典批评是，候选人在为这家公司做实际工作，等于免费帮公司解决问题。

Yeah.

对。

What's the velocity on the problem they tackle say engineering or PM?

他们要解决的问题，工作量大概有多大？比如工程或产品经理岗位？

Yeah, there's a set of problems they can choose from. So you know and so we feel like they have like some direction and discretion. We also are very open to right sizing it for them based on where they are and their availability and time too to a a certain extent. So we try to be flexible flexible and understanding around that. And we also you know we'll sometimes use Saturdays too. You know so

他们可以从一组问题中选择。我们认为，这样既能给他们一些方向指引，也能提供一定自主权。我们也非常愿意根据他们所处的情况、时间和可用性来调整合适的规模，并把这些因素纳入考虑。某种程度上，我们会尽量保持灵活，也理解这一点。而且，我们有时也会安排在周六。因此，

like we understand it can be hard to take away time away on a work week or a traditional work week and so we totally get it. It's it's a big ask a big commitment. We think it's worth it but we're also willing to schedule that when that works for them.

我们理解，在工作周或传统工作周中抽出时间可能很难，所以我们完全理解。这是很高的要求，也是一项重大的投入。我们认为这很值得，但也愿意安排在对他们合适的时间。

So there's this like conflict around a lot of time and effort that could feel slow.

所以这里存在一种矛盾：这需要投入很多时间和精力，可能会让人觉得流程很慢。

But when they're ready to go we are fast.

但当他们准备好推进时，我们的速度就很快。

Right? We make up that time. So if you and I were having an initial screen you're like yeah I'll I'll be able to talk in two I'm like open up your calendar I have their calendar great you're going to talk to them in an hour.

我们会把那些时间补回来。因此，如果你和我正在进行初步筛选面谈，你说两天后可以聊，我就会让你打开日历，而我这边有他们的日历。很好，你一小时后就会和他们聊。

Right? So you like you like move once they're ready to go you got to capitalize on that. You can't create openings for them to come have second guessing. So when we go we go but we it might take a lot of time to get up to that moment.

所以，一旦他们准备好推进，你就必须抓住这个机会。你不能给他们留下空档，让他们开始犹豫不决。因此，我们一旦启动就会全速推进，但可能需要花很多时间才能走到那一刻。

Moving ourselves further down the funnel what's kind of the moment when you decide we're going to make this person an offer? Is there something that you look for specifically or and or or just what's the process like a hiring committee meeting or something else?

再往招聘漏斗后端推进一些，你们通常在什么时刻决定向这个人发出录用邀请？你们是否会特别关注某些东西，还是说流程是怎样的？是招聘委员会会议，还是其他形式？

Yeah, we we debrief as as immediately as possible as a team.

我们会尽可能立即以团队形式进行复盘。

Each function has a little bit of a different hiring process of what that looks like but we we don't have hiring committees it is hiring manager led.

每个职能的招聘流程略有不同，但我们不设招聘委员会，而是由招聘经理主导。

They get lots of input from the team.

招聘经理会从团队获得大量意见。

And you remember the the role of the hiring manager is you know, it's not a democracy.

需要记住的是，招聘经理的职责并不是组织民主投票。

Hiring manager is holding there that group accountable for getting helping them get them the right inputs to make out the right decision to make the best decision, hire or no hire.

招聘经理要让团队承担责任，并帮助团队获得正确的信息，以便做出正确、最优的决定：录用或不录用。

Uh, and so we try to frame it in that way.

因此，我们会尝试以这种方式来界定招聘流程。

Make sure we get really good signal on it. Um, and we try so we try to move really quickly. So debriefings typically same day if not next day. Um, and and you know, kind of like make that decision then that decision goes to the founders for for stamping.

我们要确保能够从中获得非常好的信号，因此会尽量非常快速地推进。复盘通常在当天进行，最晚也会在第二天进行，然后做出决定。之后，这个决定会提交给创始人批准。

Awesome. Okay.

太棒了。好的。

Then you get to the offer stage. There's a bunch of stuff here, but one is just uh, there are many massive offers happening these days.

接下来就进入发 offer 的阶段。这里涉及很多内容，其中一点是，现在有很多天价 offer 出现。

Say Okay, so say you made an offer to one of these top 50 people and they're like, "Okay, but I also got this offer from Anthropic for a bazillion dollars."

例如，假设你向这顶尖 50 人中的一位发出了 offer，而对方说：“好的，但我还拿到了 Anthropic 给的天价 offer。”

Mhm.

嗯。

How do you handle that? And also just is that like super frustrating or is it like, "Oh wow, more signal this person is incredible."

你会如何应对？这会不会让人特别沮丧，还是会让你觉得：“又多了一个信号，说明这个人非常出色。”

Yeah, I think I think it can it can be both. There's room for both. Um, I think that um, the goal is to not be selling at the close.

是的，我觉得两种感受都可能存在，也都可以被接受。我认为关键在于，不要等到最后成交时才开始推销。

We're we're we're trying to sell throughout. And so, if you think about the craft of recruiting, the craft of recruiting is up front getting a really clear on this person's motivations.

我们会在整个过程中持续争取对方。因此，如果思考招聘这门手艺，它首先是在前期真正弄清楚这个人的动机。

And what might be why they might make a move and for what.

也要弄清楚他们为什么可能会考虑跳槽，以及他们跳槽是为了什么。

And then making sure that that entire experience hits to those pieces. So the at the end is a culmination not a start.

然后，要确保整个体验都触及这些方面。因此，到最后的 offer 应该是水到渠成的结果，而不是一个新的开始。

Right? It feels like almost like a natural per outcome of it. Where it's just like, "Oh, this is almost like this um, just like a sumptive next step of Yeah, and here's the offer that we talked about a lot." You know, like you know, and so so we versus like kind of starting the the clock or starting the conversation on a close.

它几乎应该像一种自然结果，让人感觉：“这几乎就是顺理成章的下一步，这就是我们一直在讨论的那个 offer。”而不是从这时才开始计时，或才开始围绕成交展开对话。

I think we try to get back to those motivations, so we might think about how we would differentiate against intrinsic size-wise or the role or the team or the people you work with. Um we try to think about we really try to focus on the intrinsic things, not the extrinsic things, which is very hard to do when you're you're getting MBA players like offers and salaries and sometimes great bigger than that. But we really try to

我认为我们会努力回到那些动机上，因此可能会思考如何从内在因素上实现差异化，比如规模、岗位、团队，或者与你共事的人。我们确实会努力聚焦于内在因素，而不是外在因素；但这很难做到，因为当你拿到像 MBA 球员那样的 offer 和薪资时，有时数字会高出很多。不过我们确实会努力

focus on people who uh want to be want to be here. You know, and um often when people are thinking about um their job search and what might be next, they maybe start with a set of things and we maybe help them discover other things along the way.

聚焦于那些想要来这里的人。通常，当人们考虑自己的求职以及下一步可能做什么时，起初可能会有一组考量，而我们也许会帮助他们在过程中发现其他考量。

And we might discover at the end that it actually this is not the right fit and that's okay and we should be we feel good about walking away from that. Uh but often it's about helping them discover that actually maybe this is the right place through that journey.

到最后，我们也可能会发现这实际上并不合适，这也没有关系；我们会觉得放弃这件事也没有问题。但通常关键在于帮助他们发现，也许这里才是通过这段旅程找到的正确归宿。

How often do people take a job without with that doesn't have the highest comp? Like is that common or is that rare?

人们有多常会接受一份并不提供最高薪酬的工作？这种情况很常见，还是很罕见？

Yeah, I think you're trying to mitigate comp as a reason people come or don't come.

是的，我认为你是在尽量降低薪酬成为人们来或不来的理由。

Um and often that means you're not at the it's not the highest number.

而这通常意味着你给出的并不是最高数字。

And I think you you know, we've all probably talked with people who maybe at some point in their career chased just the largest number.

而且我认为，我们可能都和一些人聊过，他们也许在职业生涯的某个阶段，只是一味追逐最高数字。

And I think what you realize six months in is like that just becomes your new level of like comp expect you know, comp life.

我认为六个月后你会意识到，那只是变成了你的新基准，类似于新的薪酬预期和薪酬生活方式。

But you're you're not excited about the people you work with or the work you're doing.

但你对与你共事的人，或者你正在做的工作，并不感到兴奋。

Um and so we try to kind of mitigate that as a as a piece, but I think that happens happens a lot. You know, and also rightfully so, you know, that we've probably lost people where maybe we were the highest one and they went somewhere else too and like if that's the right fit for them, this is this is going to sound sound a little polyannic, but like I fundamentally believe there are right people for right companies at the right

因此，我们会尽量在这方面有所缓解，但我认为这种情况经常发生。坦率地说，这也合情合理。我们可能曾经失去过一些人，当时我们给出的薪酬也许最高，但他们去了别处。如果那才是适合他们的选择，虽然这听起来可能有些理想化，但我从根本上相信，在合适的时机，会有适合相应公司的

time.

合适的人。

And if they discover at the end of that that we're not, that's the right call for them and like as a recruiter, if they're not the right fit, I literally have to redo that work in 6 months.

如果他们最终发现我们并不适合他们，那对他们来说就是正确的选择。作为招聘者，如果他们并不合适，我就必须重新做一遍这项工作，6 个月后还要再来一次。

I don't want to redo that work. I'd rather let's let's figure that out right now um and have that more open conversation.

我不想重做这项工作。我宁愿现在就把这件事弄清楚，并进行一场更坦诚的对话。

You should build uh an agent [clears throat] that helps you decide and figure that out, which company is the right fit for you right now in this time cuz that sounds really valuable.

你应该做一个智能体，[清嗓子] 帮助人们判断并弄清楚，在当下这个时期，哪家公司最适合自己，因为这听起来非常有价值。

That would be That would be That would be super interesting.

那会非常有意思。

Uh something that I've heard Anthropic does that I've never heard anyone do, uh similar to Tesla, they don't have a They don't let you negotiate. They're just like, "Here's the offer."

我听说 Anthropic 会做一件我从未听说其他人会做的事，和 Tesla 类似，他们不让你谈判。他们只是说：“这是我们的报价。”

Do you feel like that's like an only Anthropic thing that they could do because they're just Anthropic and or is or is that something you think about?

你认为这是否只有 Anthropic 才能这么做，因为他们就是 Anthropic，还是说这也是你会考虑的做法？

I I mean, I've thought about it. I see, you know, uh over time different companies have done that. Um and I think what I respect about it is like you make that call.

我考虑过。我看到，随着时间推移，不同的公司都曾这么做过。我欣赏的一点是：你做出了这个决定。

And um and you kind of stick with it and there's a commitment to it. Um but every company's different and I think the approach is is So, I I respect it, but um I I think about it, but it you know, may not be right for us.

然后你坚持这个决定，并且对此有所承诺。但每家公司都不同，我认为这种做法也是如此。所以，我尊重它，也会考虑，不过它可能并不适合我们。

From the candidate's perspective, what are what are some mistakes that people make when they get an offer that kind of shoot themselves in the foot?

从候选人的角度来看，人们在拿到 offer 后会犯哪些错误，以至于搬起石头砸自己的脚？

Um the general advice I give to candidates is when you think about your offer and if you're negotiating, it has to just fit a line of logic.

我给候选人的总体建议是，当你考虑自己的 offer、考虑是否要谈判时，诉求必须符合一条清晰的逻辑。

Right? And so, if you are asking for a certain piece of compensation or certain other piece of it, like what is it rooted Well, how like walk me through like your the logic behind it and like how like that I think that makes it easy for that person to understand, but also easy for them to communicate that forward to maybe a different decision maker as well.

因此，如果你要求调整某一部分薪酬，或者其他某一项内容，依据是什么？请带我梳理你背后的逻辑。我认为这样会让对方更容易理解，也更容易让他们把这个理由转达给另一位可能的决策者。

Um so, I see um candidates who maybe a little bit all over the place on that uh where earlier it was this and now it's this and it's kind of it's kind of the add-on type of thing versus a candidate who's coming in of like, "Here's the four things that are important to me." and being clear and consistent with it um as as much at the from the outset as you can. Not all things can be there at the outset.

我看到一些候选人在这方面可能会有些东一榔头西一棒子，之前说的是这个，现在又变成那个，给人一种不断加码的感觉。相比之下，有些候选人会直接说：“以下四件事对我很重要。”并且清晰、一致地表达这些诉求，尽可能从一开始就说清楚。当然，并非所有事情一开始都能明确。

Um, that makes it very logical and easy for the company to kind of engage with that.

这会让逻辑非常清楚，也让公司更容易以某种方式回应这些诉求。

Versus just finding random excuses for more income.

而不是随便找些理由来要求更高收入。

Correct. And you know, I think what a company generally knows is like we're not their top We're intrinsically not their top choice. Mhm. Right? And so, um, we're trying to win head and hearts here. And it's not we're not trying we're not we're not trying to, um, we're not trying to buy that out.

没错。而且我认为，一家公司通常知道的是：我们并不是他们的首选，本质上就不是他们的首选。因此，我们是在争取他们的认同和好感。这并不是说我们想用钱把这件事摆平。

How just like mind-blowing are these comps these days? I imagine you've seen so many.

现在这些薪酬方案到底有多令人震惊？我想你已经见过很多了。

Yeah. I think it's all it's all true and worse, um, or higher.

是的。我认为传闻都是真的，而且实际情况更糟，或者说更高。

I think the the open question a lot of us the AI companies are like how does this like where does it go how does it go from here? Like how does this end?

我认为许多 AI 公司面临的一个悬而未决的问题是：这会怎样？会走向哪里？接下来会如何发展？这会如何收场？

Nobody knows.

没有人知道。

Um, but it does feel like the unit of measure that matters the most is the most fixed and finite, which is time.

但感觉最重要的衡量单位是最固定且最有限的资源，也就是合适的人。

It is a race against the clock to get the model, the talent, you know, and like that is like the all that is like the thing that matter the most is the most precious.

这是一场与时间的赛跑，要获得模型和人才，而这些就是最重要、最珍贵的东西。

Clearly for some companies there's more money and there's more other things, but time is like is our is the most fixed and important asset right here in in this market.

显然，对有些公司来说，资金更多，也有更多其他资源，但在这个市场中，时间是最固定、最重要的资产。

Just coming back to the AI researcher trend, it's crazy how these people used to be just like off on the side building these AI models ML models not that exciting to anybody and now they're like the most in demand.

回到 AI 研究员这个趋势。这些人过去只是待在一旁开发这些 AI 模型、ML 模型，当时并没有让任何人感到如此兴奋，而现在他们成了最抢手的人才。

And I remember I helped, um, build out the, um, the research group at Facebook before they had they they just not hire PhDs even, you know, advanced degrees really much at all. And um, you know, this is uh, 2010 or something.

我记得自己曾帮助组建 Facebook 的研究团队。在那之前，他们几乎不招聘博士，拥有高等学位的人也很少被录用。那大约是在 2010 年左右。

And I remember meeting just like this set of academics really, who were grow getting this like growing frustration of their work not ever making it outside of those the halls of academia. And so, I'd like to very excited for that population to have like this moment. You know, they've been arguably the underpinning of technical innovation for decades.

我记得当时见到了一群学者，他们越来越感到沮丧，因为自己的工作始终无法走出学术界的围墙。因此，我非常高兴看到这群人迎来这样的时刻。他们可以说数十年来一直是技术创新的基石。

And they're having their moment. And like well well well deserved.

现在是他们的高光时刻，而且确实当之无愧。

Kind of along those lines to close out this the funnel of let's call it the funnel of joy instead of the funnel of doom.

顺着这个思路，为这个漏斗话题收尾——不如称之为“喜悦漏斗”，而不是“厄运漏斗”。

Yeah, love it.

对，我喜欢这个说法。

I heard from one of your candidates, here's the quote that I got, uh that you and your team's ability to close and convert candidates with offers to accept is extraordinary.

我从你的一位候选人那里听到一段评价，说你和你的团队在促成候选人接受录用通知、完成转化方面能力非同寻常。

What are some things you do that help get someone over the line that are kind of on the fence?

对于那些仍在犹豫的候选人，你们会做些什么来帮助他们最终做出决定？

Yeah, um so I think there's like a couple things there. One, I I I'll just re-mention quickly, which is that the closing is happening throughout the process. Um in terms of like who they're meeting and motivations and like we're removing objections along the way.

我认为这里有几件事。第一，我再简要提一下，我们会在整个过程中持续推进成交。例如，他们会见谁，他们的动机是什么，我们也会一路消除他们的顾虑。

Uh so that's one. I think the second is um closing is a team sport.

这是第一点。第二，促成成交是一项团队运动。

And so, when we have a candidate, um particularly like a high-profile, high-caliber, there are often daily stand-ups around that candidate about what we're doing to get them to yes. And that might be 10 minutes, but it's not the amount of time, it is like I focused energy every day around what we are collectively doing. And so that could be the hiring manager,

因此，当我们有一位候选人时，尤其是知名度高、能力很强的候选人，通常会围绕这位候选人每天开站会，讨论我们正在做什么，以促使他们答应。会议可能只需要 10 分钟，但重点不在于花多少时间，而在于每天围绕我们共同推进的事情投入专注的精力。所以参与者可能包括招聘经理、

recruiter, but also could be former peers. You know, there's like lots of people who influence that, and we try to just be very intentional about making sure that person feels cared for and belong and coming here and like staying on top of things. The third thing I think is we just try to make it very personal. Um and so, just this week, you know, 2 days ago I I just saw and we try to share these stories internally, too.

招聘人员，也可能包括他们以前的同事。很多人都会对候选人的决定产生影响，我们会尽量有意识地确保候选人感到被关心，并且感到自己属于这里、愿意来到这里，同时持续跟进进展。第三，我们会努力让这件事非常个性化。就在这周，两天前我刚看到一个例子——我们也会努力在内部分享这些故事。

Cuz this is how builds the culture of recruiting. We kind of share these stories back to the company.

因为这正是构建招聘文化的方式。我们会把这些故事分享回公司内部。

Uh but someone was sharing we were working on a candidate in New York and we learned that uh through getting to know them that they went to a performing arts high school and were a classically trained violin violinist.

有人分享说，我们当时在接触一位纽约的候选人。通过与对方深入交流，我们了解到对方曾就读于一所表演艺术高中，并且是一位受过古典训练的小提琴演奏者。

And we were just kind of very into like stringed uh instruments.

而我们当时正好很喜欢弦乐器。

Um so this person um I found this like specialty instrument store in New York City and bought this like kind of unique Turkish guitar almost almost violin guitar thing. And they were meeting for like a dinner where they got the offer and they presented that gift to them.

于是这个人找到了一家专门销售乐器的纽约市店铺，买了一把颇为独特的土耳其吉他，有点像介于小提琴和吉他之间的乐器。随后他们约了一顿晚餐，并在那次晚餐上向对方发出录用邀请，同时把那份礼物送给了对方。

And so it was a couple hundred dollars maybe, right?

所以那大概是几百美元。

Not a lot of money. Particularly relative to like the size of offer and the size of impact that we thought that you know that someone's going to have.

这并不算很多钱，尤其是相对于录用邀请的规模，以及我们原本预期这个人将带来的影响规模而言。

Uh but it's like it's the thoughtfulness and the touching uniqueness of it and the personal moment of that that like I think stands out. And I think when a candidate thinks about having the best candidate experience, often they feel like wow, this felt like tailored to me. This felt unique to me.

但其中的用心、触动人心的独特性，以及那个个人化的时刻，才是真正突出的地方。而且我认为，当候选人思考什么是最好的候选人体验时，他们往往会觉得，这仿佛是为我量身打造的，对我来说非常独特。

I know there's also a Slack channel that gets created per for each candidate.

我知道，似乎还会为每位候选人创建一个 Slack 频道。

Every candidate Yeah, so I think when you talk about the stand-up, sometimes that's also strategy and updates and like and so there's the same rallying effect to activate is no different at the at that close and each candidate has their own channel.

每位候选人都有。是的，所以我认为，当你谈到站会时，有时其中也会涉及战略和最新进展，因此同样会产生动员效果，在最后冲刺阶段推动大家。这与之前并没有什么不同，而且每位候选人都有自己的频道。

Just so much of this just keeps going back to intentionality around every specific candidate and not treating it like the funnel, but just this is the atomic unit, this person. What can we do throughout the entire process to make them get excited and see if it's a fit?

许多内容都不断回归到针对每一位具体候选人的用心，而不是把它当作一个漏斗；也就是把这个人视为最基本的单位。我们能在整个流程中做些什么，让他们感到兴奋，并判断彼此是否合适？

Which is hard to do when you're doing at scale at the funnel of doom.

当你在“厄运漏斗”中大规模开展招聘时，这很难做到。

So when you are thinking about a hundred candidates for every role then this is not that does not scale. But when you're narrowing that down to a small percentage of people that you've been kind of laying groundwork with over time, it come because it because now people are moving faster through those steps and it's a smaller number of people. So, the time that you're taking, you know, holistically for that funnel, you're

因此，当你针对每个职位考虑一百名候选人时，这种方式无法规模化。但当你将范围缩小到一小部分一直以来都在逐步铺垫关系的候选人时，这就行得通，因为这些候选人在各个步骤中的推进速度更快，人数也更少。所以，你所投入的时间，从整个漏斗来看，

just displacing putting it in different places.

只是被重新分配到了不同的环节。

It's so interesting and it's such a different approach. I've never heard of anyone hiring this way.

这太有意思了，而且是一种如此不同的方法。我从未听说过有人这样招聘。

Yeah, and we had this like thesis when I was at Growth by Design, you know, around like there's a we think there's this different way to do this. We'd seen all these companies over time and work with labs and all these things were like, "Wow, like these companies are literally at the cutting edge of a technical revolution here. Probably the most exciting one we've seen

是的。我当时在 Growth by Design 时有一个想法：我们认为可以用不同的方式来做这件事。我们见过很多公司，也长期与实验室合作，经历过这些事情，因此会觉得：“这些公司确实处在技术前沿，革命就在这里。这或许是我们见过的最令人兴奋的一场变革。”

in millennia and they were recruiting in a web browser way.

而他们当时仍在以类似网页浏览器的方式进行招聘。

And we're like, "If a company like had this willingness to commit this time and effort as this collective force, they could really have an unfair advantage when it comes to talent."

我们当时认为：“如果一家公司愿意投入这样的时间和精力，并将其作为一种集体力量，他们确实可以在人才方面获得不公平的优势。”

And when you think about companies over time, whether they become this iconic logo or one that we know we no longer recognize, it often isn't the first company, the fastest to market, the first idea. It's actually execution.

回顾公司随时间的发展，无论它们最终成为标志性品牌，还是成为如今已不再被我们熟知的公司，胜出的往往并不是最早进入市场或最早提出想法的公司。真正重要的是执行力。

And execution comes down to having the right talent at the right time. And when companies figure that out, they're like, "Ooh, this is the most important thing and this is how we're going to approach it." And so, when we met Cursor, we're like, "This could be fun."

而执行力归根结底在于在恰当时机拥有合适的人才。当公司想明白这一点后，就会认识到：“这才是最重要的事，这就是我们要采取的方式。”因此，当我们见到 Cursor 时，我们认为：“这可能会很有意思。”

Cursor is actually such a great example of exactly what you're describing because it feels like throughout the entire history of Cursor, it was always just like, "How are they going to survive? There's these model companies building these things, the IDEs like like people are moving away from IDEs and it's been incredible to watch Cursor execute and get ahead of each of these shifts. Whenever people doubt that

Cursor 确实是一个绝佳的例子，完全印证了你所描述的情况。因为在 Cursor 的整个发展历程中，人们似乎总是在想：“他们要怎么活下来？这些模型公司也在做这些东西，还有 IDE，大家好像都在远离 IDE。”而看着 Cursor 的执行力如此出色，实在令人惊叹。它总能执行到位，并领先于每一次这样的变化。每当人们怀疑

there's an opportunity here, it just keeps growing and killing it.

这里是否存在机会时，它都在持续增长，而且表现得极其出色。

I mean, it's not too long ago it was like tab auto complete, you know, on it and like now we're in the fully cloud agents and it's just um But just remember the time span is like once. You know, it's [laughter] the condensed nature of this is just wild.

不久之前，大家讨论的还是 Tab 自动补全之类的功能，而现在我们已经进入了完全云端的智能体时代。回想这段时间跨度，几乎像是一瞬间发生的。这一切被压缩得如此之快，实在令人难以置信。

I came to the office at one point, and I got a tab button, and now it's just like no longer even a thing.

有一次我来到办公室，使用了一个 Tab 键功能，而现在它似乎已经完全不算什么了。

Yeah. Now it's just cute. Yeah, now it's just on the shelf. Yeah.

是的，现在它只是一个可爱的小功能。现在它已经被放在架子上了。

And just talk.

然后就直接进入聊天。

Something that one of your colleagues wanted me to ask you is just what it what is it like to work with an exact team who truly believes recruiting is the most important thing?

你的一位同事提到过一件事，我想问你：与一个确实真正相信招聘是最重要事情的团队共事，到底是什么感觉？

It's a gift. And at times incredibly frustrating.

这是一份礼物。有时也会非常令人沮丧。

So the gift part of it is like imagine that uh how much they care like trying to convince a founder to go have a conversation or to do anything recruiting like that is not a problem here. And like we've you know uh worked with companies who you know where you're like you're trying to like pull them in to things.

它好的一面在于，他们非常在乎招聘。因此，试图说服创始人进行一次沟通，或者做任何与招聘有关的事情，在这里都不是问题。我们曾经与一些公司合作，在那些公司里，你会觉得自己是在努力把他们拉进这些事情之中。

Um so it's a it's a true gift.

所以，这确实是一份礼物。

The the you know the challenge is like they're in your Like they're in it, you know, like they understand it. Like the the cursor team hired their first 80 people roughly 80 people on their own. They know how hard they know how to do it. They know how hard it is, which is great, but also like they love it and they're in it, and they want to do it. And so there can be zero ego about this of who owns you know who has

挑战在于他们身在其中。他们确实身在其中，也理解这件事。Cursor 团队最初招聘的 80 人左右，都是他们自己招的。他们知道这有多难，也知道该怎么做。他们知道这件事很难，这很好；但与此同时，他们也很喜欢这件事。他们身在其中，并且想亲自参与。因此，在这件事上，必须完全放下自我，不去计较谁负责什么，或者谁拥有

what piece and like it's an all hands on deck. And so sometimes that can be confusing on who's doing things and things that you know you find out about things after the fact that happened like but like it's like I don't know I'll take that every day.

哪一部分。这是一场全员参与的行动。所以有时可能会让人不清楚谁在做什么，有些事情会在发生之后才被发现。但我认为，如果让我选择，我每天都会选择这样的情况。

That is extremely net positive, but there you know there's always like a a counter balance to uh such an advantage like that.

总体而言，这绝对是非常正面的。不过，任何事情总会有一种与优势相伴的代价。

So interesting. That's like CPOs often are frustrated for that reason where the founders are always in there in their Yeah, but they care. You know, like I will I'll take the I'll take the effort and care and with that with that tax any day.

真有意思。这就像 CPO 往往会因此感到沮丧，因为创始人总是参与其中，参与他们的工作。是的，但他们很在乎。我愿意在任何时候接受这种投入和关心，以及随之而来的代价。

And then one of your hot takes is that the recruiter the recruiting team should be the highest paid team within the company.

你还有一个很大胆的观点：招聘人员、招聘团队应该是公司内部薪酬最高的团队。

Yeah, one of them. Yeah, if not the I mean if if you think about the this impact that they're having, um that uh and like the you know, I feel like there's a supply and demand crisis around really strategic recruiters because of the somewhat transactional nature we've made recruiting over time.

是的，至少应该是薪酬最高的团队之一；如果不是最高的话。考虑到他们所产生的影响，以及真正具有战略性的招聘人员所面临的供需危机，我认为这一点很合理。因为我们在某种程度上把招聘变得越来越像一种交易。

And so, I just think there's a really small supply of recruiters who can function at this level and at and at this approach and style. And so, like any other labor market, it's a it's a cost of labor thing and there's just very few of it. And so, um we think that they have tremendous impact. Um but it's like a really rare skill set.

所以，我认为能够在这个层级上发挥作用，并且采用这种方法和风格的招聘人员，数量非常少。就像其他任何劳动力市场一样，这也是劳动力成本的问题，而这样的人非常稀缺。因此，我们认为他们能带来巨大的影响。但这是一种非常罕见的技能组合。

Uh something I wanted to ask you that I forgot to ask is uh we talk a lot about talent density.

有一件我原本想问你但忘了问的事：我们经常讨论人才密度。

How much of it is about the person specifically versus the team that you assemble around them?

其中有多少取决于这个人本身，又有多少取决于你围绕他组建的团队？

Yeah, I feel like where companies like overly focus is like an individual.

是的。我觉得有些公司过度关注个人。

And unless they are a team of one, it's actually like the the you know, if you think about amazing leadership and amazing managers, they're actually quite great puzzle builders.

除非是单人团队，否则如果考察出色的领导者和管理者，就会发现他们都很擅长搭建拼图。

And they think about building these teams that are complementary uh together and then help them excel.

他们会思考如何组建能够彼此互补的团队，并帮助团队发挥出色。

And so, talent density is not a single piece unless like the numerator and denominator are both one.

因此，人才密度并不是一个孤立因素，除非分子和分母都是一。

You know, and so, but that's not the case. Often, this is one over how many people. And so, talent density is actually a a collective nature of of individuals and humans. But we often because you are recruiting one human at a time, I think sometimes we get overly focused on that specific 10Xer thing, you know?

但通常情况并非如此。很多时候，这是“一”除以团队人数。因此，人才密度实际上是一种集体性的、由个体与人共同构成的属性。但由于招聘通常是一次招聘一个人，我认为我们有时会过度关注某个特定的 10 倍人才。

Um and I actually would think I like to think a little bit more around exponential around 10X of like a a team versus an individual.

我更愿意从另一个角度思考，即团队的 10 倍能力所带来的指数级效应，而不是个人的 10 倍能力。

I don't think you can have a 10X person on a bad team.

我不认为一个糟糕的团队里会存在 10 倍人才。

It just like doesn't exist. You know, I think you know, like I used to think when we were like at my last company, we can't we can't be a great uh client service provider if we don't have a great client if we don't have a great client. We can get There's like just a bar there. And similarly, a person that is might be excellent is going to be throttled if they're not on a strong and supportive team.

这种情况根本不存在。我以前在上一家公司时常常认为，如果没有优秀的客户，我们就不可能成为出色的客户服务提供商；如果没有优秀的客户，我们能够达到的水平就会有上限。类似地，一个可能很优秀的人也是如此。如果他们不处在一个强大且支持性的团队中，就会受到限制。

That makes sense to me.

这对我来说很有道理。

Okay, I'm going to ask you a bunch of random questions. These are uh again, I think people are going to be hearing this and be like, I need Adam immediately when we need help. Uh and they're not going to be able to get that cuz you know, you got a job. So, I'm going to try to extract as much as I can while we're here. Um when is Say you're an early-stage company, think about hiring, setting up your first your hiring approach, what's

好，我要问你一组随机问题。听到这里之后，我觉得很多人会想，在需要帮助时，希望 Adam 能立刻过来。但他们无法做到这一点，因为你有自己的工作。所以，我会趁我们在这里，尽可能多地挖掘你的经验。如果你是一家早期公司，正在考虑招聘以及制定最初的招聘方法，

kind of the most common ways that early-stage companies and founders eff up their early team and hiring?

早期公司和创始人最常见的早期团队和招聘失误是什么？

Yeah, I think the thing they try to do is do this um silver bullet hire, um which is a first like head of talent, and they kind of um collapse two competing skill sets into one.

我认为他们试图进行一种“一锤定音”的招聘，比如招聘第一位人才负责人，然后把两种相互冲突的技能组合并到一个人身上。

Okay, so when you are generally as a founder, when you're ready to hire your first recruiter, you're probably behind on hiring. There's a problem to solve there. You're behind on hiring. So, then maybe there's like a a debt of roles to fill.

一般来说，当创始人准备招聘第一位招聘人员时，公司的招聘进度大概率已经落后。有一个问题需要解决：招聘进度落后。因此，可能已经积压了一批需要填补的岗位。

5 10 15.

5 个、10 个、15 个。

But you also are hiring someone at this stage cuz you want them to build like a system. Like just like we're like they might be like, "Wow, like I want to build something like Adam's talking about." So, you're trying to build this like hire someone who can also put in the right pieces to help scale out. And like those are competing interests.

但在这个阶段招聘某个人，也是因为你希望他们搭建一套体系。他们可能会想：“我想搭建 Adam 刚才所说的那种东西。”因此，你想搭建这套体系，就需要招聘一个既能做到这一点，又能补齐合适模块来帮助扩展的人。而这些诉求彼此冲突。

Because person who wants to come in and like just any new hire, they want to like prove out, they want to make hires, but they might not put in the system, or they might put in the system, but not make any hires, and now you're like not sleeping. And so, they try to collapse this into one role, and generally that's a mistake. And so, we recommend kind of decoupling those things.

因为加入公司的人和任何新员工一样，都想证明自己，也想完成招聘，但他们可能不会搭建体系；或者他们可能会搭建体系，却不会完成任何招聘，而这时你就会为此失眠。因此，把这些能力合并成一个岗位，通常是一个错误。我们建议把这些事情拆开。

So, that means you still might will to one person, but can you get some help with the other one?

这意味着你可能仍然会把其中一项交给一个人，但另一项是否可以寻求一些帮助？

I'm going to hire the person who's going to put in the right system, but I'm going to partner them with a uh contingent recruiter or something else to like make some short-term progress while they and kind of like teach the company how to do this through these roles that they fill that they're helping orchestrate or vice versa. I might bring in someone to help us put in the right uh foundation which like we did at GBD

我会雇用愿意搭建正确体系的人，但会让他们与一位合同制招聘顾问之类的人合作，在短期内取得一些进展。同时，他们也会通过自己填补并协助统筹的这些职位，教会公司如何做这件事。反过来也可以。我可能会请一个人帮助我们搭建正确的基础，就像我们在 GBD 所做的那样。

and then they get to hire like a really high-powered IC recruiter who can connect execute.

然后，他们可以招聘一位能力非常强的独立贡献者招聘顾问，由这位顾问对接并执行。

Amazing. That makes all the sense in the world. Uh when you're looking for that first recruiting hire, is there anything else you think is important to look for? I know it depends on maybe which of these two buckets they're going to be in, but any other advice?

太好了，这完全说得通。当你在寻找第一位招聘岗位人选时，还有什么你认为很重要、需要关注的因素吗？我知道这可能取决于他们属于这两类中的哪一类，但还有其他建议吗？

Yeah, I think number one is that they are like curious and business-focused. Um they're an early member of the team.

有。第一点是，他们要有好奇心，并且以业务为导向。他们是团队的早期成员。

They got to be really curious and understanding of how the business works and how each of those hires is going to change the slope of the business.

他们必须非常有好奇心，并且理解业务如何运作，以及每一笔招聘将如何改变业务的发展斜率。

Mhm.

嗯。

Um and so Mhm.

嗯，所以嗯。

you know, often that means that they have all these interesting it shows up in lots of way curious people, um but I think that's the number one thing I think of. The number two one which I think and I think these sometimes get switched is just like high motor, you know, someone who like understands the grind that it will be and the pace that it works and is down for it. And that doesn't have mean they

这通常意味着他们会具备各种有趣的特质，并且会体现在很多方面。好奇心强的人会呈现出这些特征，但我认为这是我首先会考虑的因素。第二点是要有很强的行动力，我认为人们有时会把这两点混淆。也就是要理解这会是一场苦战，理解工作节奏会有多快，并愿意投入其中。这并不意味着他们

have to be younger or or it doesn't mean anything.

必须更年轻，也不代表任何其他含义。

It's just that they love um working at this edge of overwhelmness. And so I often think about my team is like we want the water level to be like right here.

只是他们喜欢在这种近乎不堪重负的边缘状态下工作。所以我经常把团队想象成：我们希望水位正好停在这里。

Uh and so you're like you're breathing, but you know, and if you if you've met any kind of recruiters, recruiters are excellent at 90 to 110% capacity and are terrible outside of that. Right? If they only have half a req load, they kind of like are like useless.

这样你仍然能够呼吸。任何了解招聘顾问的人都会知道，招聘顾问在 90% 到 110% 的负荷下表现出色，而一旦超出这个范围，表现就会很糟糕。如果他们只有一半的招聘需求负荷，基本上就派不上什么用场。

Or if they're like, know, way overwhelmed, also just overwhelmed. But they're kind of great at this like middle ground of like edge of adrenaline rush busy.

如果他们负荷过重，也只会被压垮。但他们很擅长处在这种肾上腺素飙升边缘的忙碌状态。

And you go you want to find those people.

而你会想找到这样的人。

Oh, man. So, along those lines, uh I've heard from a bunch of people that you just have a huge followership on your team. There's a lot of heads of talent from other companies that decided to join your team to be ICs.

天啊。顺着这个话题，我从很多人那里听说，你在团队中有非常多的追随者。许多其他公司的招聘负责人决定加入你的团队，担任 IC。

What are some things you've learned about building incredible teams, keeping people working for you over the long term?

关于如何让员工长期为你工作、长期留下来，你学到了哪些经验？

One thing I learned is at each place my team has looked different.

我学到的一点是，在每个地方，我的团队形态都不一样。

Um because the company how they think about recruiting or the product is different. And so, the Cursor way demanded a different type of team.

因为不同公司对招聘或产品的理解都不同。所以，Cursor 的方式需要一种不同类型的团队。

Right? It demanded this level of recruiter and who has like understands the leadership recruiting motion, who's not going to get caught up in the numbers game of the funnel of doom.

它需要的是这种级别的招聘人员：具备对高管招聘模式的理解，并且不会陷入漏斗数字游戏。

Like they have this confidence and they have you know, they they have a network that they can tap into. And so, we I think we we talked a lot about hiring managers other people networks, but seasoned great recruiters have their own networks, too. Like you have a couple of recruiters in your life that you trust, that you probably would like seek advice on, you know? And so, we try to collect those people, too, cuz they they can be

他们有这种自信，也有可以利用的人脉网络。我们经常谈到招聘经理和其他人的人脉，但经验丰富且优秀的招聘人员也有自己的人脉网络。比如，你身边会有几个自己信任的招聘人员，你可能会向他们请教建议。所以，我们也会尽量聚集这样的人，因为他们能够

as influential in tapping their networks as uh a technical leader, for example.

在动用自己的人脉方面发挥同样大的影响力，就像一位技术负责人一样。

Um so, and then I kind of just kind of think about like three attributes um of someone who I want on my team. Uh so, one, uh I want people who are excellent humans and excellent in what they do.

然后，我大致会考虑希望团队成员具备的三个特质。第一，我想要非常优秀的人，以及在自己领域非常出色的人。

And I'm not willing to trade that off.

而且我不愿意在这一点上妥协。

We are going to spend most of our waking hours during the week together.

我们会一起度过一周中绝大部分清醒的时间。

And we should be all be selfish enough to want to work with great people, great yeah, great humans.

我们都应该足够自私，希望和优秀的人一起工作。

The second is um people who I look for people who have a chip on their shoulder, something to prove, um love the craft. They have this is like internal drive and motivation to be excellent.

第二点，我会寻找那些心有不甘、想要证明自己、热爱这门手艺的人。他们具备一种内在的驱动力，推动自己做到卓越。

Um and that can show up in lots of ways and I try to get to that.

这种特质可以以很多方式体现出来，而我会努力挖掘这一点。

And then the third thing is I look for people who put team over themselves. And so this is really important clearly for the team I built now. They could be running recruiting at lots of places.

第三点，我会寻找把团队置于自己之上的人。这一点显然非常重要，尤其是对我现在组建的团队而言。他们本可以在很多地方负责招聘工作。

Um but what they've realized is that no one really aspires to get to middle management.

但他们意识到，没有人真正会以升到中层管理岗位为志向。

We kind of end up there.

我们往往只是这样一路走到了那里。

But what they did realize is like they love the craft of recruiting and they love to be challenged, they love to learn.

但他们确实意识到，自己热爱招聘这门手艺，喜欢接受挑战，也喜欢学习。

Um they want to work with great people.

他们想和优秀的人一起工作。

And so when I would go out to my network and I'm like, "Hey Lenny, who are three people you know that are excellent humans and excellent recruiters?

所以，当我去问自己的人脉圈时，我会说：“嘿，莱尼，你认识的三位既是很好的人、又是优秀招聘人员的人是谁？”

They just just have this natural drive or chip on their shoulder and like they put team over themselves." You're like, "Ah, you should talk to Janet." You know, you like you can conjure those things up. And so we've really tried to build a team uh of those folks here and I'm really excited about the people we've collected.

“他们具备那种天然的驱动力，或者心有不甘，而且会把团队置于自己之上。”你就会说：“你该和 Janet 聊聊。”这些人往往会立刻浮现在脑海里。所以，我们确实一直在努力在这里组建一支由这类人构成的团队，我对我们聚集起来的这些人感到非常兴奋。

Uh it's a good sign when I'm just like, "Wait, I want to work for Adam. This sounds really great."

我会想：“等等，我也想为亚当工作。这听起来太棒了。”这就是一个好迹象。

And I try to be this balance of because recruiting is sometimes around inspiring your team, but it's a deeply operational function. You know, and so I've tried to find this balance of where I can be like in the weeds, operational, understand it, be in it with them, but also sometimes lift up and help like paint the bigger picture, too.

我也努力实现这种平衡，因为招聘有时关乎如何激励团队，同时又是一项高度偏运营的职能。因此，我一直在努力找到平衡：既能深入细节、关注运营、理解这项工作，并与团队一起投入其中；也能在必要时跳出来，帮助他们描绘更大的图景。

Amazing. Adam, we've covered so much ground. We've gone through the whole funnel and more.

太棒了。亚当，我们已经聊了很多内容，梳理了整个漏斗，甚至还谈到了更多方面。

Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you wanted to share, anything else you want to leave listeners with, any nugget you want to double down on?

在进入非常精彩的快问快答环节之前，你还有什么想分享的内容，或者有什么想留给听众的观点？是否还有什么值得加倍投入的精华想法？

I mean, one thing that we didn't talk about which I think is happening, I'm seeing more of, is renegs on offers. And so I think a lot of companies get to the yes of the offer acceptance and there's often like a gap of time.

有一件我们还没有谈到的事，但我认为它正在发生，而且我看到得越来越多，那就是有人反悔已经接受的 offer。因此，我认为很多公司走到接受 offer 这个环节时，往往会经历一段时间间隔。

Uh in the more senior they are often it's, you know, beyond a couple weeks.

职位越资深，这个间隔往往就不止几周。

Uh we think about a second motion happening after offer accept. Which is, you know, where we are a button seat business in recruiting and there's like a big window there where someone has like, ah, they accept the offer and we kind of like go on to the next one.

我们会把第二阶段的动作放在接受 offer 之后。招聘本质上是招人填岗的业务，而在这段时间里存在一个很大的窗口期。有人会认为，对方已经接受了 offer，我们差不多就可以转去处理下一个人了。

But what are we doing between offer accept and join?

但在接受 offer 和入职之间，我们究竟在做什么？

And there's two key parts of that. One is like make sure that they show up. The second is like a bit of a pre-boarding and helping them have a fast ramp by staying connected with them. So, we'll do dinners with other people who have accepted. We try to create essentially create community around them. We'll send them a Cursor laptop.

其中有两个关键部分。第一是确保他们会来入职。第二是做一些入职前准备，并通过与他们保持联系，帮助他们快速上手。因此，我们会和其他已经接受 offer 的人一起吃晚餐。我们会尽量在他们身边建立一个社群。我们还会寄给他们一台 Cursor 笔记本电脑。

You know, kind of feels like a presumptive you've joined kind of way.

这种做法有点像是先假定他们已经加入了。

We do these dinners. We do these like touch points. Um one is help to make sure like that delivery happens, but also to feel like they they start to get excited, too. They start to kind of visually realize what's it going to look like.

我们会组织这些晚餐，也会进行这些接触和沟通。一方面，这是为了帮助确保他们最终入职；另一方面，也让他们开始感到兴奋，并能更直观地想象加入后会是什么样子。

Wow, that is so brutal to have gone through that entire funnel. Got the offer, made the offer, accepted the offer, we're in and just no.

走完整个流程之后居然还会发生这种事，真是太残酷了。拿到了 offer，发出了 offer，对方也接受了 offer，以为事情已经稳了，结果对方却直接不来了。

Oh man. And you're saying this is a trend, I imagine, because just the market is so hot and they're getting better offers, offers that they didn't expect.

所以你是说这是一种趋势。我想，这是因为市场太火热，他们拿到了更好的 offer，或者拿到了原本没有预料到的 offer。

Correct.

没错。

Yeah.

对。

Uh I love I feel like there's this lake of things we didn't talk about. Is there anything else, any other trends, any other trends, things that you noticed of like, wow, this is changing in the hiring landscape?

我很喜欢这个观点。感觉还有很多事情没有聊到。还有没有其他趋势？或者你有没有注意到什么事情，让你觉得招聘领域或招聘格局正在发生这样的变化？

I think maybe the other trend I think we see like the rise of the talent engineer. I don't know if you've seen that out there, you know, the kind of the the the function within a recruiting team who is a possibly former engineer who's like building tools and things like that. And uh my warm take, not a hot take, my warm take is like every recruiter should be a talent engineer. Like the things that

我觉得，另一个趋势或许是人才工程师的崛起。不知道你有没有在外面见过这种情况：招聘团队中的某个职能，由曾经做过工程师的人来承担，负责搭建工具之类的工作。我有一个不算太激进的观点，也不算热门观点；我的温和观点是，每个招聘人员都应该成为人才工程师。比如，现在招聘人员

recruiters now have at their fingertips that they could build in Cursor or other tools is really phenomenal. Um and in earlier companies I was in, we were often beholden to like begging for engineering time to build us tools or functions or features. And now that's like that's in us. Like we have that right now uh in our team. And so uh I want a future state of my recruiting team to feel like they are talent

触手可及、可以用 Cursor 或其他工具构建的东西，真的非常了不起。在我之前待过的公司里，我们经常需要请求别人分配工程时间，帮我们搭建工具、功能或特性。而现在，这已经成为我们自己能够完成的事。我们拥有这种能力，现在我们的团队就有。因此，我希望未来我的招聘团队会觉得自己就是人才工程师。

engineers.

工程师。

Um versus you know leaning on someone else on the team to help them like build a tool, if that makes sense.

而不是依赖团队里的其他人来帮他们搭建工具，如果这种说法成立的话。

Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree.

对，绝对是。我完全同意。

It's interesting. There's go-to-market engineers like every function is going to have their version of engineer.

这很有意思。现在有市场推广工程师，每个职能都会有自己版本的工程师。

Yeah.

对。

Over time. Engineers engineers.

随着时间推移，甚至会出现工程师中的工程师。

Uh well, Adam, with that we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready?

好了，亚当，接下来进入非常令人兴奋的快问快答环节。我有五个问题要问你。你准备好了吗？

Yeah. Yeah.

准备好了。

All right. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most other people?

好。你最常向别人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Yeah, this is super nerdy.

这个问题很极客。

Um so there's two. There's one of it's like that like I read in undergrad um that has stuck with me.

有两本。其中一本是我本科时读过的书，一直令我印象深刻。

And it's emotional intelligence by Daniel Goleman.

那就是 Daniel Goleman 的《情商》。Daniel Goleman。

And you know it's kind of the the rise of EQ um as an important piece of it. And I just feel like emotional intelligence right now, more than ever, is so important in this like AI age. And so it was like super transformative to me way back then and I think it's like really important now.

这本书讨论的是 EQ 的崛起及其重要性。我认为，在 AI 时代，情商比以往任何时候都更加重要。很久以前，这本书就对我产生了巨大影响；我也认为它在今天依然非常重要。

Uh and the other one I love for founders is just uh the high-growth handbook by Elad Gil. I just think it's set I'm a big fan of a book where you can just jump to a chapter and get an answer. And it's not this like linear piece you got to work through.

另一本我很喜欢推荐给创业者的书，是 Elad Gil 写的《High Growth Handbook》。我非常喜欢这种可以直接跳到某一章寻找答案的书。它不是线性的内容，不要求读者必须从头读到尾。

And so I think it's such a great reference guide on different problems.

因此，我认为它是一本很好的参考指南，可以用来应对不同问题。

And you know for the most part building companies um the components are the same.

而且在大多数情况下，构建公司的组成部分都是相同的。

You know the core principles even when that came out several years ago, I still think hold true. So I like the the high-growth handbook.

即便这本书是在几年前出版的，其中的核心原则在我看来仍然适用。因此，我喜欢《High Growth Handbook》。

Uh a Stripe Press uh shout-out. Uh high-growth handbook. I imagine you've read Scaling People by Claire Hughes Johnson. It feels really up your alley.

向 Stripe Press 致敬。《High Growth Handbook》。我想你应该读过 Claire Hughes Johnson 写的《Scaling People》。感觉这本书会特别符合你的兴趣。

Yeah. Love her.

是的。我很喜欢她。

Yeah. Another Stripe Press.

对，又一本 Stripe Press 出版的书。

Uh amazing. I love that yeah, Elad's book is still useful. Like I don't know how many years later.

太棒了。我很喜欢。没错，Elad 的书到现在依然有用。我甚至已经记不清它出版多少年了。

Amazing.

太棒了。

Yeah.

是的。

Uh favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?

最近有没有一部你特别喜欢的电影或电视剧？

Yeah, I'm going to I have not seen a movie in years.

我想说，我已经很多年没看电影了。

Um I feel like my life My life is at like 20-minute chunks. Um but I have been watching a series uh The Pit.

我感觉自己的生活都是以 20 分钟为一个单位。不过，我最近一直在看一部剧，《The Pitt》。

Um and I'm from Western Pennsylvania, so from like the Pittsburgh area, and not only is that like a it's not only is it extremely well done, um but two, it makes my life feel less frantic. Yeah.

我来自宾夕法尼亚州西部，也就是匹兹堡地区。这部剧不仅制作得极其出色，其次，它还让我觉得自己的生活没有那么兵荒马乱。

[laughter] Living hour It's about the only thing that can make my life feel less frantic is living an hour in an ER.

[笑声]体验一个小时——几乎唯一能让我觉得生活没有那么兵荒马乱的事，就是在急诊室里待上一个小时。

Um and like all they they go through. And I often, you know, try to tell my team around like the gravity of things. I was like, "Hey y'all, like we get to work for this amazing company and product things, but people are not living and dying every day by decisions that we make. In The Pit, they are, you know? So, it's kind of just gives us like leveling part.

还有他们所经历的一切。我经常会试着和团队谈事情的轻重缓急。我会说：“各位，我们能为这家出色的公司和产品工作，确实很好；但人们并不会因为我们做出的决定而每天徘徊在生死边缘。在《The Pitt》里，他们会。”所以它在某种程度上帮助我们重新校准认知。

Um and then third, I think they just like capture the ethos of that region, which is like my core, which is like Western Pennsylvania blue-collar grinder.

第三，我认为他们抓住了那个地区的精神气质。那里是我的根，那是一种宾夕法尼亚州西部蓝领阶层拼命工作的劲头。

Uh and I just think they do a really good job of capturing that. So, I've been I've been watching that uh when I can on some airplanes."

我认为他们非常好地捕捉到了这一点。所以，只要在飞机上有机会看，我就一直在看这部剧。

I love that for most people that shows very stressful and for you it's calming because [laughter] it's less stressful than your life.

我喜欢这一点——对大多数人来说，这看起来压力很大；但对你来说却很平静，因为 [laughter] 它比你的生活压力小。

Just the relative relative nature of things is helpful.

事情的这种相对性很有帮助。

And like have you watched The Bear cuz I feel like that'd be another example?

你看过《熊家餐馆》吗？我觉得那可能是另一个例子。

Yeah, that I think if I was a probably Chicago guy, that would probably that would probably resonate. Although, I have seen it. Yeah.

看过。我觉得如果我是芝加哥人，那部剧大概会引起共鸣。不过我确实看过。

Oh, man. Okay, uh couple few more questions. Uh do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love other than Cursor?

天啊。好，还有几个问题。除了 Cursor 以外，你最近有没有发现特别喜欢的产品？

Yeah, I think it's still I think one is like semi-recent one isn't. I'm a huge granola fan. I think I was super early on granola, and I love that they continue to innovate.

有。我觉得其中一个算是最近发现的，另一个不是。我是 Granola 的忠实用户。我很早就开始使用 Granola，而且很喜欢他们持续创新。

Um and really just did Yeah, just great product decisions, easy to use.

他们的产品决策非常出色，产品也很容易使用。

Um they're great on feedback, too. If you've ever given them feedback, they're phenomenal.

他们也非常善于处理反馈。如果你曾经给过他们反馈，就会知道他们在这方面确实很出色。

The second I've been using a lot is Whisper, Wispr Flow.

我经常使用的第二个产品是 Whisper，Wispr Flow。

And just trying to get out um quick notes to my team. I am better this than this on turns of like my thoughts.

我会用它快速向团队发送简短笔记。相比用文字表达想法，我更擅长这样做。

And so Whisper's been amazing uh on the go to drop notes to my team.

因此，Whisper 一直非常好用，在路上也能给团队发笔记。

Listen to this, Adam. You may not know this. Uh I don't.

听我说，亚当。你可能不知道这一点。——我不知道。

Subscribers to my newsletter get a year free of not only Cursor, but also Granola and Wispr Flow not know that.

我的 newsletter 订阅者可以获得一年的免费使用权，不仅包括 Cursor，还包括 Granola 和 Wispr Flow。——我不知道这个。

30 other incredible products, Replit and Google and lovable and it's out of control. So, if you like any of these products, [laughter] lennysproductpass.com.

此外还有 30 款其他出色产品，包括 Replit、Google 和 Lovable，数量多得惊人。所以，如果你喜欢这些产品中的任何一款，可以访问 lennysproductpass.com。

That was not uh that was not a place at all. That was just yeah, I did not know that.

这完全不是事先安排好的。我之前确实不知道这些权益。

It's just we have all the best products for free for a freaking year, including Cursor. So, there you go.

我们提供所有最好的产品整整一年免费使用，其中也包括 Cursor。就是这样。

lennysproductpass.com.

lennysproductpass.com。

[laughter] Okay, two more questions. Uh do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life?

好的，再问两个问题。你有没有一句特别喜欢、并且在工作或生活中经常回归遵循的人生格言？

Yeah. Um I think there's like three things um that I come back to and I you know, try to um instill in my kids, too. So, one is like work hard.

有。我觉得大概有三件事是我经常回归的原则，也是我尽量灌输给孩子的观念。第一件事是努力工作。

I think the value of hard work um is hard to understate.

我认为努力工作的价值再怎么强调都不为过。

Um and something like I grew up in.

这也是我从小耳濡目染的观念。

Second is like do great work.

第二件事是把工作做好。

So, let's not confuse the two.

因此，不要把这两者混为一谈。

And third is like be helpful.

第三件事是乐于助人。

And I think like one thing I've really tried to do and you know, maybe we part of the reason I was able to help build this team is I've really just tried to be helpful. And if you talk to founders out there, anyone, I will answer their emails.

我真正努力在做的一件事，也许也是我能够参与组建这个团队的部分原因，就是我一直努力帮助别人。如果你去问那些创业者或者其他人，就会知道我会回复他们的邮件。

I will jump on a 10-minute call with them. And I want to think that people come to me for help and advice and like it's the right ones. And so and that's just has now like I now getting to reap some of that of people who like want to you know, come to the work on the team, but so those three things I've really um tried to live by.

我会和他们进行 10 分钟的通话。我希望人们来找我寻求帮助和建议时，他们本身就是合适的人。如今这件事开始带来一些回报：有人希望加入这个团队工作。这三件事是我真正努力践行的原则。

That is an awesome set of uh principles to live by. Uh clearly it has contributed to your success. I'm going to steal them all. Those are really good. That's like a good tripod of things to to be focused on.

这是一套很棒的人生准则。显然，它促成了你的成功。我要把这些都借来用。这些原则确实很好，就像一个稳固的三脚架，是值得专注的三件事。

You talked about being a dad. Final question. Uh people said you're uh you're an expert on on the importance of a well-placed dad joke. I'm not going to ask you to do a joke unless you want to, but more so just like what's something you've learned about raising kids cuz I'm a I'm a dad, 3-year-old. What's just like a thing you have learned about raising great kids?

你提到自己是一位父亲。最后一个问题。大家都说你很擅长把握时机讲老爸笑话。我不会要求你讲笑话，除非你愿意。不过我更想问的是，关于养育孩子，你有什么心得？我也是父亲，孩子 3 岁。关于养育优秀的孩子，你学到的一件事是什么？

It's humbling.

这会让人保持谦逊。

You know, um they will challenge you in ways you don't expect. Um they are like mini mirrors of you sometimes. So it's like that's like a it's a feedback mechanism.

孩子会以你意想不到的方式挑战你。有时候，他们像是小小的你，像一面镜子。因此，这也是一种反馈机制。

And it's like such a joy, honestly. Um and I'm very lucky to have an amazing wife and and partner who um at times, most times, takes the unfair, you know, load of it.

说实话，这件事带来了无比的快乐。我非常幸运，有一位很棒的妻子和伴侣。她有时候，甚至大多数时候，会承担并不公平的负担。

Um but um yeah, it's probably it's definitely my greatest joy.

呃，但，嗯，是的，这大概是，这绝对是我最大的快乐。

That's such a good summary. That's exactly how it feels.

这个总结太好了。这正是那种感受。

Very challenging at times, but the greatest joy.

有时非常有挑战性，但也是最大的快乐。

But just think about your career though.

不过，回想你的职业生涯。

The thing when you look back on your career of your most enjoyable times, you were a little bit over your skis.

当你回顾职业生涯中最享受的那些时光时，你当时往往都有些超出了自己的能力范围。

You were thrown into something unexpected that you weren't ready for.

你被投入一件意料之外、自己尚未准备好的事情里。

And you like figured it out. And in the moment it was a series of ups and downs, stacking S curves, but you'll look back and I'll be like, "Wow, that was like one of like my career highlights."

你设法完成了它。在当时，那是一连串的起伏，是一条条叠加的 S 曲线；但回头看时，你会说：“哇，那真是我职业生涯中的高光时刻之一。”

But you were really over your skis.

但你当时确实超出了自己的能力范围。

Uh Molly Graham, who's been on the podcast, and did a couple newsletter uh guest posts, she has this concept she calls the J curve, which is you your best roles are just you join and and you go way down and suck at it for a while, and then you come back up, and that's the best experience you've ever had.

Molly Graham 之前上过这个播客，也为新闻通讯写过几篇客座文章。她有一个概念，叫作 J 曲线。意思是，你最好的岗位往往是这样的：你刚加入后一路跌到低谷，在一段时间里表现得很糟，随后再爬回来，而那会成为你经历过的最棒体验。

Molly is Yeah, Molly has gold out there, for sure.

Molly 是的，Molly 分享的内容确实很有价值，毫无疑问。

She's so incredible. Working on a new guest post right now, might have come out by the time this comes out.

她非常厉害。她现在正在写一篇新的客座文章，等这一期播出时可能已经发布了。

Love it.

太好了。

Uh with that, two final questions, Adam.

那么最后两个问题，亚当。

Uh what do you want to plug? Anything you want to point people to? And how can listeners be useful to you?

你想推广什么？有什么想推荐给大家的吗？听众可以怎样帮到你？

I think they're one in the same. I mean, I I uh I'll plug I mean, I would love people to try try Cursor. I think it's incredibly exciting things that we're coming out with. Um and we're really proud of it. Um some things in the pipeline, too. I'm not super out there online. I think I'm on LinkedIn a little bit, but um I really honestly try to like my let my work um and our team speak for what we do.

我觉得这两者是一回事。我想推荐的是，希望大家能试一试 Cursor。我认为我们即将推出的东西非常令人兴奋，也确实为此感到自豪。此外，还有一些正在筹备中的内容。我在线上并不太活跃。我想我会稍微使用一下 LinkedIn，但说实话，我确实尽量让我的工作以及我们的团队为我们所做的事发声。

Um but I'm always down to be helpful, back to the last point. So, um I I really do get pure energy and joy from helping people. And so, I know at some point that will come back in some kind of way or form. Don't expect it to, but um that's just where I get that that drive from me.

不过我一直愿意提供帮助，这也回到刚才那一点。我确实能从帮助他人中获得纯粹的能量和喜悦。因此，我知道总有一天，这会以某种方式或形式回馈给我。不要期待它一定会这样，但这就是我的动力来源。

Just to plug Cursor a little bit. Uh not only is just the design and experience of Cursor awesome, the best feature for a lot of people is you could just switch between models extremely easily. So, instead of getting hooked on Codex or Claude code, use Cursor, and then a new Opus comes out, and you GPT comes out, and you could switch and just play around with it immediately versus switching the product.

我稍微宣传一下 Cursor。不仅 Cursor 的设计和使用体验很棒，对很多人来说，最好的功能是你可以极其轻松地在不同模型之间切换。因此，与其迷上 Codex 或 Claude Code，不如使用 Cursor；新的 Opus 发布了，GPT 发布了，你就可以切换，并且立即上手试用，而不必更换产品。

Yeah, there was a world where models were coming out every three or four months.

是的，曾经有一段时间，模型每隔三四个月才会发布一个。

We're down to a number of days between models, and uh people I know who love to build products want to be working with the best tools at any given time. And so, you know, our our agent um allows you to choose the right model.

现在，模型之间的发布间隔已经缩短到几天。我认识的那些热爱构建产品的人，都希望能够使用当下最好的工具。因此，我们的 agent 可以让你选择合适的模型。

And I think for a lot of companies, also cost is a is a rightful consideration now. And so, it really comes around optimization of using the right model for the right task. And so, that's kind of just landing into uh Cursor's sweet spot.

而且我认为，对很多公司来说，成本如今也是一个合理的考量。归根结底，这就是优化：为合适的任务使用合适的模型。这恰好落在 Cursor 的核心优势上。

Yeah, and you guys are also now just building state-of-the-art models built sitting on SpaceX's data centers like a whole new world for cursor.

对，而且你们现在也在构建最先进的模型，将其部署在最先进的模型上，并运行在 SpaceX 的数据中心里，这像是为 Cursor 开启了一个全新的世界。

I mean getting to getting to train on the world's largest data center has just unlocked um our models. So, it's been it's been amazing.

能够在世界上最大的数据中心进行训练，真正释放了我们模型的潜力。因此，这段经历一直非常出色。

What a time to be alive.

生活在这个时代真好。

That's crazy.

这太不可思议了。

Adam, thank you so much for being here.

亚当，非常感谢你来参加。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢邀请。

Bye, everyone.

大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

非常感谢你的收听。如果你觉得本期节目有价值，可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify，或你喜欢的播客应用上订阅本节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

此外，也请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到这档播客。你可以访问 lennyspodcast.com，找到所有往期节目，或了解更多关于本节目的信息。

[music] See you in the next episode.

[音乐]下期节目见。