当构建变廉价,品味成为最稀缺的能力

No, I think taste matters a ton.

不,我觉得 taste 极其重要。

In a world where it's easier to build things, it's more important to make sure that your time is spent figuring out what you should be building in the first place.

在一个构建东西变得越来越容易的世界里,更重要的反而是确保你把时间花在想清楚一开始到底该构建什么上。

The people who I think are going to make the most of it are the ones who are cleareyed about what AI is good at and what it's not good at and also have an instinct or a nose for what it will be good at and not good at.

在我看来,能把它用到极致的人,是那些对 AI 擅长什么、不擅长什么看得很清楚,同时又对它将来会擅长什么、不擅长什么有直觉、有嗅觉的人。

What's something that the Instagram algorithm knows about human behavior that people may not realize?

Instagram 算法有哪些关于人类行为的认知,是人们可能没意识到的?

I think people assume that there's a much more detailed semantic understanding of everybody's interests and preferences in the algorithm than there is.

我觉得人们以为算法里对每个人的兴趣和偏好有一种远比实际更细致的语义化理解。

Is the rise of AI content a headwind or a tailwind for Instagram versus other platforms?

相比其他平台,AI 内容的兴起对 Instagram 来说是逆风还是顺风?

I think it's going to be a tailwind, but I think it's going to be a challenge in a world where there's an abundance of synthetic content.

我觉得它会是顺风,但在一个合成内容泛滥的世界里,它也会是个挑战。

I actually think people are going to seek out creativity and authenticity and people.

我其实认为人们会去主动寻找创造力、真实性和真实的人。

I don't think we should filter out AI content.

我不认为我们应该把 AI 内容过滤掉。

I think we should let you know if content is AI content or not.

我觉得我们应该让你知道某条内容到底是不是 AI 内容。

That's hard.

这很难。

By the way,

顺便说一句,

where do you think human brains will continue to be most valuable as AI continues to eat more and more of that product development life cycle?

随着 AI 不断吞噬越来越多的产品开发生命周期,你觉得人脑会在哪些地方继续保持最大的价值?

That's a great question.

这是个好问题。

So today my guest is Adam Mosseri, head of Instagram.

今天我的嘉宾是 Adam Mosseri,Instagram 负责人。

Over three billion people use Instagram monthly.

每月有超过 30 亿人使用 Instagram。

That's one in every three people alive.

这相当于每三个活着的人里就有一个。

It boggles the mind.

简直令人难以置信。

Prior to Instagram, Adam designed and led the early Facebook news feed.

在 Instagram 之前,Adam 设计并主导了早期的 Facebook news feed。

He also ran the team that built the Facebook ranking algorithm.

他还带领过打造 Facebook 排序算法的团队。

And 8 years ago, he took over Instagram from its founders, Kevin Cyester and Mike Kger.

8 年前,他从 Instagram 的创始人 Kevin Systrom 和 Mike Krieger 手中接管了 Instagram。

He's a designer turned product manager turned leader of Instagram.

他是一个从 designer 转型为 product manager、再成为 Instagram 掌舵人的人。

Adam is also famous for being the face of all of the controversy and changes that come with evolving Instagram as a product, which we talk about.

Adam 还有一个出名之处,就是他成了随 Instagram 这款产品演进而来的所有争议和变动的门面人物,这一点我们也会聊到。

Before we get into it, don't forget to check out lennisproduct.com for a free year of the most interesting and well-crafted AI products in the world, available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers.

在正式开始之前,别忘了去 lennisproduct.com 看看,那里有全世界最有意思、最精心打造的 AI 产品,可以免费用一年,专门面向 Lenny's newsletter 的订阅者开放。

With that, I bring you Adam Mosseri.

那么,有请 Adam Mosseri。

Adam, thank you so much for being here.

Adam,非常感谢你能来。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到这档播客。

Thank you for having me.

谢谢你邀请我。

Excited to be here.

很高兴能来。

You've been doing product for a long time.

你做产品已经很长时间了。

You get to see how a lot of teams operate across Meta within Instagram.

你能看到 Meta 内部、Instagram 里面很多团队是怎么运转的。

What does just kind of like the canonical product team look like in 2026?

到了 2026 年,那种最典型、最标准的产品团队长什么样?

What's kind of most different today in how teams operate slash should operate versus say a couple years ago?

在团队怎么运转、以及应该怎么运转这件事上,今天跟比如说几年前相比,最不一样的地方是什么?

It's changed a lot this year.

今年变化很大。

So for the longest time at a big company like ours, the canonical team was something like two or three Android engineers, two or three iOS engineers, two or three server engineers, maybe a generalist, a PM, a designer, a data scientist, a researcher if you were lucky, and maybe that's about it.

在我们这样的大公司里,很长一段时间以来,最典型的团队大概是这样:两三个 Android engineer、两三个 iOS engineer、两三个 server engineer,也许一个通才,一个 PM,一个 designer,一个 data scientist,运气好的话还有一个 researcher,差不多就这些了。

So you know on the order of a baker's dozen and that is a function of you know you want to have for anybody who's writing code someone who can review their code and that's who's familiar with that codebase and having these different functions that are more specialized you know I think it's very different at a startup but this year it's changing we've adopted what we call pods which are just mini teams where it's call it four to six engineers who are a bit more generalists.

所以差不多是一打出头的人,这背后的逻辑是:对任何写代码的人来说,你都想有一个能 review 他代码、熟悉那套 codebase 的人,再加上这些更专门化的不同职能——我觉得在 startup 里情况会很不一样——但今年这一切正在改变,我们采用了我们称为 pod 的东西,其实就是迷你团队,大概四到六个更偏通才的 engineer。

Uh one we call product staff which is sort of an evolution of the PM.

呃,其中一个我们叫 product staff,算是 PM 的一种进化形态。

So a PM who can do some of what a designer does and some of what a data scientist does and some of what a research does leveraging um the latest tools that we have for them.

也就是一个 PM,借助我们给他们提供的那些最新工具,能干一部分 designer 的活、一部分 data scientist 的活、一部分 research 的活。

And then whatever specialist they need if they if they're doing something that requires a pricing strategy you need a senior data scientist.

然后再加上他们需要的任何专家——如果他们在做的事情需要定价策略,你就需要一个资深的 data scientist。

If you're doing something that is really novel from an experience standpoint, you need a very senior product designer.

如果你在做的事情从体验角度看非常新颖,你就需要一个非常资深的 product designer。

So we try to build the team based on the needs of the work a bit, but then end up with a much smaller core which is more on the order of six or seven usually.

所以我们会多少根据工作的需要来搭建团队,但最后落地的核心团队要小得多,通常在六七个人的量级。

And that is a very big shift that's just happening to us this year.

这是一个非常大的转变,而它就发生在今年,就发生在我们身上。

But they just by virtue of having less people to coordinate they can often move faster and make um better decisions a little bit less design by committee.

但仅仅因为要协调的人更少,他们往往就能跑得更快、做出更好的决策,少了一点那种委员会式的设计。

So we talk a lot about you know AI adjusting and improving productivity and that's part of it but I think another part of it is just the small teams I think often are just more effective.

所以我们经常聊到,你知道的,AI 在调整和提升生产力,这是其中一部分,但我觉得另一部分原因就是小团队,我觉得小团队往往就是更高效。

This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor, WorkOS.

本期节目由我们本季的呈现赞助商 WorkOS 带来。

What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Versell, Replet, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common?

OpenAI、Anthropic、Cursor、Vercel、Replit、Sierra、Clay,还有其他数百家成功的公司,它们有什么共同点?

They are all powered by work OS.

它们全都由 WorkOS 提供支持。

If you're building a product for the enterprise, you've felt the pain of integrating single signon, skim, arbback, audit logs, and other features required by large companies.

如果你在为企业客户构建产品,你一定体会过接入 single sign-on、SCIM、RBAC、audit logs 以及大公司要求的其他功能时的那种痛苦。

work OS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SAS.

WorkOS 把这些卡死交易的障碍变成了即插即用的 API,配上一个专为 B2B SaaS 打造的现代开发者平台。

Literally every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand up market ends up working with Work OS.

但凡我投资的、开始向上拓展到高端市场的 startup,几乎每一家最后都在用 WorkOS。

And that's because they are the best.

这是因为他们就是最好的。

Whether you are seedstage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, work OS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise ready and unblocking growth.

无论你是想拿下第一个企业客户的种子期 startup,还是正在全球扩张的独角兽,WorkOS 都是让你最快达到企业级就绪、打通增长的路径。

It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features.

它本质上就是企业级功能里的 Stripe。

Visit works.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions.

访问 workos.com 就能上手,或者直接去他们的 Slack,那里有真正的 engineer 在等着回答你的问题。

Workos allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience.

WorkOS 让你能借助令人愉悦的 API、完善的文档和顺滑的开发者体验更快地构建。

Go to work os.com to make your app enterprise ready today.

今天就去 workos.com,让你的 app 达到企业级就绪。

I I love this.

我我太喜欢这个了。

So on this team of six to seven, what's what's the makeup again?

那么在这个六到七个人的团队里,构成再说一遍是怎样的?

And which role are you finding you have less of?

以及你发现哪个角色是你用得更少的?

If you're going from the kind of the if you're going 50% size,

如果你要从那种——如果你要把规模砍到 50%,

you just have less specialists, right?

你手上的专才就是更少了,对吧?

So you might not have any.

所以你可能一个都没有。

You might be four engineers and a product staff and there's no data scientist, there's no designer, there's no researcher, there's no content designer.

你的团队可能就是四个 engineer 加一个 product staff,没有 data scientist,没有 designer,没有 researcher,也没有 content designer。

The product staff is the generalist that sort of supports all of those things.

product staff 就是那个通才,基本上把这些活儿都撑起来。

I mean, what's clearly happening is all the functions are starting to bleed into each other and the and the whole industry is wrestling with what that means.

我是说,现在明显在发生的是,各个职能开始相互渗透、彼此交融,而整个行业都在苦苦琢磨这到底意味着什么。

You know, a lot of what a data scientist does at a big company, for instance, is relatively mechanical.

你知道,比如说在大公司里,data scientist 做的很多事其实相对比较机械。

And so, you know, there's stuff that they do that is really more like, you know, art and science.

所以呢,他们做的事情里,有一部分确实更像是既讲艺术又讲科学。

And the stuff that's really more like just pulling data, data management, you know, so some of the tools that we're building internally to understand, for instance, a traditional data science question would be a waterfall.

而另一部分则更像是单纯地拉数据、做数据管理——比如我们内部正在做的一些工具就是为了搞懂这些,举个例子,一个传统的 data science 问题会是一张漏斗图(waterfall)。

So if you wanted to look at people creating reels, you would look at all the steps and then how people fall off on each step and try to figure out where there might be opportunities to improve things.

所以如果你想看用户创建 Reels 的情况,你会去看每一个步骤,以及用户在每一步的流失情况,然后试着找出哪里可能有改进的机会。

That kind of basic waterfall analysis is like much easier now to use some of our internal tools to just pull automatically as opposed to having to have a data scientist do a bunch of bespoke work for that.

这种基础的漏斗分析,现在用我们的一些内部工具自动拉取就轻松多了,而不必再让 data scientist 为此做一大堆定制化的工作。

So a product staff might be able to do that now and they couldn't do that a year ago.

所以现在 product staff 就可能自己搞定这件事,而一年前他们是做不到的。

So you just end up with this generalist these people who have more generalist shapes and then and then when you need it when you really need it you have a more senior ideally or just more creative specialist um so you know a phenomenal uh product designer or just a just a genius uh data scientist or researcher.

所以最后你就得到这样一批通才、一批更偏通才型的人,然后呢——当你需要的时候,当你真正需要的时候——你再请出一位更资深、最好是更有创造力的专才,呃,比如一位出类拔萃的 product designer,或者干脆一位天才型的 data scientist 或 researcher。

This is so interesting.

这太有意思了。

It's exactly what I just heard.

这跟我刚听到的一模一样。

I had uh Fiona Fong the head of engineering for cloud code and co-work on the podcast.

我请了呃 Fiona Fong,Claude Code 和 co-work 的工程主管,上过我的播客。

She's force attorney's manager and she described the people she hires now are one builders with great taste that can take an idea from end to end and people with deep expertise in a very specific domain.

她是 Boris Cherny 的 manager,她说她现在招的人分两类:一类是有着出色 taste、能把一个想法从头到尾做出来的 builder;另一类是在某个非常具体的领域有深厚专长的人。

The tasting matters a lot.

taste 非常重要。

I really agree with that.

我非常认同这一点。

Boris used to work at Instagram.

Boris 以前在 Instagram 工作过。

Um I love

嗯,我很喜欢——

Yeah.

对。

He was a senior IC at Instagram for a while.

他在 Instagram 当过一阵子资深 IC。

I love seeing him.

我很喜欢看到他。

He's all over threads now.

他现在在 Threads 上到处刷屏。

It's like he's sort of like the face of Clark K.

他简直就像是 Claude Code 的门面。

He's he's a celebrity now.

他现在都成名人了。

He really is.

他真的是。

He's his own little Yeah, for sure.

他自成一派,呃——对,绝对的。

In a world that is like on fire right now.

而且是在一个此刻正如火如荼的领域里。

Um, no, I think taste matters a ton.

嗯,不,我觉得 taste 太重要了。

Uh, so in a Um, actually, so a lot of designers right now are very anxious about their roles.

呃,所以——嗯,其实呢,现在很多 designer 都对自己的岗位很焦虑。

you know, you've got these other generalists doing design, you've got engineers doing design, product staff doing design, but I'm actually pretty long on design or designers because they tend to have taste and I think that is something that is much more difficult to imagine being automated away.

你看,现在有各种通才在做设计,有 engineer 在做设计,有 product staff 在做设计,但我其实相当看好设计、看好 designer,因为他们往往是有 taste 的,而 taste 恰恰是那种很难想象会被自动化取代的东西。

And so there's other challenges with design sometimes, but I I'm pretty long right now on designers.

所以设计有时候也面临别的挑战,但我现在相当看好 designer。

I've always felt that too as it is so easy to build and all the work that AI produces is so like you can tell this was cloud design.

我也一直有这种感觉,因为现在做东西太容易了,而 AI 产出的所有作品都很——你一眼就能看出来这是 Claude 设计的。

I know what you did

我知道你用的是什么。

This is codeex.

这是 Codex。

Well, they all have their vibe, right?

嗯,它们各有各的调调,对吧?

Like you vibe code your apps.

就像你 vibe code 你的 app 那样。

We call it vibe coding.

我们把它叫做 vibe coding。

You're all like, "Oh, that's a codeex app." Or, "Oh, that's a cloud app."

你会忍不住说:“哦,这是个 Codex 做的 app。”或者:“哦,这是个 Claude 做的 app。”

Right.

对。

And that's replet.

那个是 Replit 做的。

That's lovable.

那个是 Lovable 做的。

Like you can

就是你能——

Yeah.

对。

You can predict these things.

这些东西你都能预判出来。

You like I've always thought that too that design should be thriving already now.

你——我也一直觉得,设计现在本该已经蓬勃发展起来了。

For some reason, it hasn't yet.

但不知为何,它还没有。

If you look at jobs for designers, they're kind of flatlining.

如果你去看 designer 的招聘岗位,基本是持平不动的。

I feel like the missing piece is like the PM piece of deeply understanding the business and what will grow it and what success, you know, like all that stuff, the business side of it versus the taste side of it.

我感觉缺的那一块,是 PM 那部分能力——深刻理解业务、理解什么能推动增长、什么算成功,你懂的,就是所有那些东西,也就是业务这一面,而不只是 taste 那一面。

Yeah.

对。

I think you're going to see like, you know, um we have a senior designer uh at Instagram uh called Nate who just transferred into product stuff.

我觉得你会看到,呃,我们 Instagram 有一位资深 designer,呃,叫 Nate,他刚刚转岗做了 product staff。

So, I think I think some of what you'll see is, you know, it will be harder to talk about design roles and who's a good designer because they're not going to just stay in traditional design roles.

所以我觉得,你会看到的一个现象是,以后要谈论设计岗位、谈论谁是好 designer 会变得更难,因为他们不会再只待在传统的设计岗位里了。

You know, if you're an amazing designer, you might you probably have strong opinions outside of just the interaction in visual design.

你想,如果你是个了不起的 designer,你很可能除了交互和视觉设计之外,还有很多强烈的主张。

You probably have strong opinions on product strategy, even on the business, on the go to market.

你很可能对产品策略、甚至对业务、对 go to market 都有强烈的看法。

And so I actually think some of our strongest product staff are going to be converts from design and from data science who are just looking to expand their reach.

所以我其实觉得,我们最强的一批 product staff,会是从设计和 data science 转过来的人,他们只是想扩大自己的影响半径。

And they were influential across functional boundaries before, but this world where those functional boundaries are just wildly blurred just allow them just to jump in.

他们以前就能跨越职能边界发挥影响力,而如今这个职能边界被极度模糊化的世界,正好让他们可以直接跳进来。

And so sure they'll be technically a generalist on paper, but they're they're clearly have a a uniquely, you know, strong ability in one one type of craft.

所以没错,纸面上他们算是通才,但他们显然在某一类手艺上有着独一无二的、呃,很强的能力。

Um, but they've got the ability and strong opinions to make informed decisions across other parts or other crafts.

嗯,但同时他们又有能力、也有鲜明的主张,能在其他领域、其他手艺上做出有依据的决策。

And so, you know, I don't know that all the strongest designers I have will all be in design.

所以呢,我不确定我手下最强的那些 designer 会不会全都留在设计岗上。

They they probably will be the majority, but I can imagine a bunch of really strong ones, you know, moving roles, but I mean, I should also check my own bias here, though, because I started as a designer at Facebook way back when, and I'm I switched roles.

他们大概率仍是多数,但我能想象会有一批非常强的人,呃,转去别的岗位;不过话说回来,我也得检视一下自己的偏见,因为我当年在 Facebook 就是从 designer 起步的,后来也换了岗。

Um,

嗯,

no, designers are great.

不,designer 很棒。

I'm a big fan.

我可是他们的铁杆粉丝。

So, this is really interesting.

所以,这一点真的很有意思。

There's always been this like GM model where different types of functions can become GMs.

一直以来都有这样一种 GM(总经理)模式,不同类型的职能都能成长为 GM。

It's like this product staff role feels like a similar situation where different functions can become product staff.

感觉这个 product staff 岗位也是类似的情况,不同职能都可以成长为 product staff。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

And that was true of PM before, but it's just so much more true now.

以前 PM 也是这样,但现在这种情况更加明显了。

Um and it'll I mean in some ways it's probably the age of the generalist, but I I still think there's going to be a real important role for these really amazing specialists who are just they're all about going I wish I was like that.

嗯,从某种意义上说,这大概是 generalist(通才)的时代,但我还是觉得,那些真正了不起的 specialist(专才)仍会扮演非常重要的角色,他们一门心思钻研——我真希望自己也能是那样的人。

I always had this like I romanticized like the phenomenal machine learning engineer or AI researcher or shoe maker.

我一直都有点把那种现象级的 machine learning engineer、AI researcher 甚至制鞋匠给浪漫化了。

Like I think that's the coolest thing in the world, but it's never been my shape.

我觉得那是世界上最酷的事,但那从来不是我的样子。

I've always been um I've never been great at anything.

我一直……我从来没有在任何一件事上做到过顶尖。

I've always just had range.

我一直就是涉猎广。

That's always been my strength.

这一直是我的强项。

Same.

我也一样。

Okay.

好。

So this idea of product staff, so the idea is on these new pods.

所以说 product staff 这个概念,这个想法是用在你们这些新的 pod(小组)上。

So this is like a new thing you guys are doing.

这算是你们正在做的一件新东西。

So there's these pod teams, product staff, engineers, and maybe one specialist that's going deep on say pricing algorithm or something like that.

所以有这些 pod 团队,里面有 product staff、engineer,可能还有一位深耕某个领域的 specialist,比如说钻研定价算法之类的。

So what this tells me is there's these like adjacent roles that are maybe uh more in trouble over the years.

那这告诉我的是,有一些相邻的岗位,可能这些年会更加岌岌可危。

Uh data science for example, user research for example, you talked about designers being anxious.

比如 data science,比如 user research,你刚才也提到 designer 很焦虑。

Is there is there anything there of just like oh these maybe folks in these groups should think about shifting to other roles?

那这里面是不是有这样一层意思:哦,这些群体里的人也许该考虑转向其他岗位了?

I I mean there's anxiety everywhere.

我是说,到处都弥漫着焦虑。

I mean, I I I've talked to a lot of people at a lot of other companies, and it just seems like this is a lot of concern right now about competition, about job displacement, about unintended or unforeseen consequences of all this technology and all this moving so quickly.

我跟很多其他公司的很多人聊过,感觉现在大家有很多担忧:担忧竞争,担忧岗位被取代,担忧这一切技术、这一切变化来得太快所带来的意外或难以预见的后果。

So, that's definitely happening.

所以,这种情况确实在发生。

I I think that I think that you will see the functional lines continue to blur, but I still think there will be room for functions.

我认为你会看到职能之间的界线继续变得模糊,但我仍然觉得职能会有存在的空间。

They'll just be shaped differently.

只不过它们的形态会不一样。

They'll be more they won't all be senior IC's necessarily, but they'll all be either senior or on their way to being senior.

它们会更……不一定全都是资深 IC(个人贡献者),但要么都是资深的,要么正走在成为资深的路上。

Like you can't just have a bunch of super senior data scientists and like no new ones because then who's going to be the new super data scientists in the future.

比如你不能只有一堆超级资深的 data scientist,却完全没有新人,因为那样的话,未来谁来当那些超级 data scientist 呢。

So you need to basically hire and mentor and grow talent.

所以你基本上需要去招人、带人、培养人才。

You know, maybe the team is smaller overall and then that those who aren't on their way to being super senior move into more of a generalist role.

你知道,也许团队整体规模更小,然后那些没走在成为超级资深路上的人,就转到更偏 generalist 的岗位。

I think that's like a reasonable soft landing, but I do think you're going to want to make sure you're investing not only in today's senior talent for each specific function, but in tomorrow's.

我觉得那是一种比较合理的软着陆,但我确实认为,你会想要确保自己不仅投资于每个具体职能今天的资深人才,还要投资于明天的资深人才。

Um, otherwise, I think you're going to regret it in a couple years.

嗯,否则,我觉得过几年你会后悔的。

My take.

这是我的看法。

That said, who knows what the world looks like in a couple years.

话说回来,谁知道过几年这世界会是什么样呢。

Um, so my big thing and is generally like don't over don't be overly confident in whatever your predictions are because there's just too much flux right now.

嗯,所以我最看重的一点、总体上就是:不要对你的任何预测过度自信,因为现在的变数实在太多了。

the Benedict Evans was on was on the podcast recently said the same thing.

Benedict Evans 最近上过这个 podcast,他也说了同样的话。

We don't know anything about what's going on.

我们对眼下正在发生的事情一无所知。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

I like I like I like him a lot.

我很喜欢……我非常喜欢他。

Um I'll make sure I listen to the podcast.

嗯,我一定会去听那期 podcast。

Yeah.

好。

So you talked about taste.

你刚才聊到了 taste。

This makes me think about So you're interviewing a lot of people, hiring a lot of people.

这让我想到——你面试了很多人,也招了很多人。

What are some traits that you're that are like trending up in things that you look for more and more now in this world?

在当下这个世界里,有哪些特质是你越来越看重、需求呈上升趋势的?

And what are some traits that are trending down and maybe less important to you?

又有哪些特质是需求在下降、对你来说也许没那么重要了的?

I mean there are some things that are the same, right?

我是说,有些东西是不变的,对吧?

So, for the longest time, almost no matter what the function, I always look for three things.

所以,长期以来,几乎不管是什么职能,我都会看三样东西。

Do you have sort of grit?

你有没有那种坚韧(grit)?

Like, you know, you're kind of like you're really gonna you've got some drive, some fire in your belly.

就是说,你身上有股冲劲,肚子里有团火。

Are you a quick learner?

你学东西快不快?

And are you, you know, are you reasonably, ideally, very self-aware so that you can actually take feedback and know what you're good at, know what you're good at?

还有,你是不是……最好是非常有自我认知,这样你才能真正接受反馈,知道自己擅长什么、知道自己擅长什么。

Because if you're those three things, if you got fire in your belly, you learn quickly, and you're self-aware, you can kind of get good at anything eventually.

因为如果你具备这三样——肚子里有火、学得快、又有自我认知——那你最终基本上什么都能学好。

Um, and but if any of those things are missing, there's usually an issue.

嗯,但只要这几样里缺了任何一样,通常就会出问题。

So that's sort of like the baseline right now for hiring, but just for I think people who are going to be more successful over these next five or 10 years as things change so significantly.

所以这算是当下招聘的基线,不过就……我觉得在接下来这五到十年、当一切发生如此剧烈变化时,那些会更成功的人。

I think two things that I I'm continuing to encourage myself to do are to stay curious and to put yourself out there.

我认为有两件事我一直在不断勉励自己去做:保持好奇,以及勇于把自己亮出来。

I just think you got to try things, right?

我就是觉得你得去尝试,对吧?

This is like, you know, to that point before where that no one really knows what's going on.

这就回到刚才那个点——没有人真的知道正在发生什么。

You just have to be willing to try things.

你只能愿意去尝试。

It's almost I don't know.

这几乎……我也说不好。

Do you speak another language?

你会说另一门语言吗?

Uh, Russian.

呃,俄语。

Yeah.

会。

Yeah.

对。

So, when you learn another language, I think one of the most important things, one of the best predictors, this is my guess.

所以,当你学一门新语言时,我觉得最重要的一件事、最好的预测指标之一——这是我的猜测。

I don't have any research on this about, you know, are you going to get good at speaking is are you willing to sound like an idiot?

我没有任何研究支撑这一点——关于你能不能把这门语言说好,那就是:你愿不愿意让自己听起来像个傻瓜?

Are you willing just to say it and be corrected and not be offended and then just get better and better?

你愿不愿意就那么把话说出来,被人纠正也不觉得受冒犯,然后越说越好?

You just have to put yourself out there.

你就是得把自己亮出来。

And with all of these new tools and models and technologies, I think you just have to be willing to try stuff.

而面对所有这些新工具、新模型、新技术,我觉得你就是得愿意去尝试。

Um, so if you're curious and you try stuff, I think that'll, you know, you'll learn, you'll adapt.

嗯,所以如果你保持好奇、又肯去尝试,我觉得那样你就会学习、会适应。

But if you're not curious or you're not willing to make mistakes or try things, I think you're in a ton of trouble.

但如果你不好奇,或者不愿意犯错、不愿意尝试,我觉得你就麻烦大了。

Uh, or at least I think it's going to be a really difficult time.

呃,或者至少我觉得那会是一段非常艰难的时期。

So those I think are premiums, not just for hiring at a company like Meta or a team like Instagram, but I just think across the industry and multiple industries over the next 10 or 20 years.

所以我认为这些是很稀缺、很值钱的,不只是对 Meta 这样的公司或 Instagram 这样的团队招聘而言,我觉得在接下来的 10 年、20 年里,这适用于整个行业乃至多个行业。

Is there something that maybe we're looking for less of for some of these functions?

有没有什么是我们对某些职能反而更少去看重的?

Um, I think that there's some that are still going to be very large teams and so you need people who are really good at managing large organizations.

嗯,我觉得有些职能仍然会是非常大的团队,所以你需要那些真正擅长管理大型组织的人。

Large organizational leadership is its own craft and skill.

大型组织的领导力本身就是一门独特的手艺和技能。

It's actually different than management.

它其实和 management(管理)是不一样的。

Um, but I do think there'll be less of those roles.

嗯,但我确实认为那类岗位会变少。

I think we'll have more smaller teams and there'll be less people who manage thousands of people.

我觉得我们会有更多更小的团队,那种管理成千上万人的人会变少。

Um, and so that's not that that job will go away, but that will be less of what I'm looking for in hires because I'm going to have less roles like that.

嗯,所以并不是说那份工作会消失,而是它会在我招人时更少地成为我要找的对象,因为我将会有更少这样的岗位。

Something I'm hearing from a few folks is AI is almost kind of resetting people's impact and success in terms of some people that were maybe low performers pre-AII can now do like things they were bad at or AI now allows them to do and now they're thriving, building all these things, helping other people.

我从一些人那里听到一种说法：AI 几乎在重置人们的影响力和成就——有些人在 AI 之前也许是低绩效者，可现在他们能做那些原本做不好的事，或者说 AI 让他们做到了，于是他们开始崭露头角，做出各种东西，还帮到别人。

Do you see that at all?

这种现象你有观察到吗？

Just like AI is just like lifting other people up, maybe lowering some people down.

就好像 AI 把一些人往上托，也许又把另一些人往下压。

Yeah.

有。

I mean the job is just different.

我是说，这份工作本身已经不一样了。

I mean take take us take um take engineering.

拿工程这件事来说吧。

Engineering used to be maybe not majority but a large percentage 40 50 60% writing code.

工程过去也许算不上大多数、但很大一部分——40%、50%、60%——的时间是在写代码。

You know it's not now especially if you talk to anybody at these labs they're spending most of their time planning and reviewing code.

现在不是这样了，尤其你要是跟这些实验室里的任何人聊，他们大部分时间都花在规划和 review 代码上。

That is a very different job.

这是一份非常不一样的工作。

You might hate that and you might have loved just writing code or you might have you might love that and you might not have been that fast at writing code.

你可能会讨厌这样，你可能过去就爱纯粹写代码；也可能正相反，你很喜欢这样，而你本来写代码就没那么快。

So you know who who succeeds is a function of whose strengths are aligned with the tools needs and the business's needs.

所以说，谁能成功，取决于谁的长处能跟工具的需求、以及业务的需求对得上。

And so this is definitely happening.

所以这种事确实正在发生。

Another thing is you've had people who had good ideas about how to contribute to other functions but didn't have the mechanical or technical skills to do so and AI reduces the boundary to do that and then all of a sudden they can't like you know I it's for me it's kind of funny because when I got hired at Facebook we all the designers had to be able to program that was like our I had I went through a technical loop we gave up on that because it was too hard to hire people um but I now get to program again for the first time in maybe 10 years and you know I am not a good engineer.

还有一点是，过去有些人对如何为其他职能做贡献有很好的想法，却缺乏动手或技术上的能力去实现，而 AI 把做这件事的门槛降低了，于是一下子他们就能做到了——对我来说这其实挺好笑的，因为我当年进 Facebook 的时候，我们所有 designer 都得会写程序，那是我们的……我经历过一轮技术面试，后来我们放弃了这个要求，因为这样招人太难了；但我现在时隔大概 10 年头一次又能写程序了，而且你知道，我不是个好工程师。

I'm a mediocre engineer on a good day but now I can write code responsibly which is just an amazing thing.

我状态好的时候也就是个平庸的工程师，可现在我能负责任地写出代码，这简直太神奇了。

You're seeing this across all sorts of levels and seniority and functions.

你在各种层级、各种资历、各种职能上都能看到这种现象。

you know, designers who are programming, uh, engineers who are pulling data and doing strong analyses, data scientists who are putting together proposals for designs.

比如，designer 在写程序，engineer 在拉数据、做扎实的分析，data scientist 在为设计方案出提案。

You know, the tools aren't all great.

当然，这些工具并不个个都好用。

By the way, I think too often we have this really polarized binary outlook on the state of AI, like are you AI pill or are you anti- AI?

顺带说一句，我觉得我们太经常用一种非常极化、非黑即白的眼光去看待 AI 的现状，好像你要么是 AI 死忠，要么是反 AI。

It's like people aren't binary.

可人不是非黑即白的。

I said that to the team yesterday and the state of the tools isn't binary either.

我昨天就跟团队这么说，工具的现状也同样不是非黑即白的。

You know, they're amazing at some things and remarkably bad at others.

它们在有些事上惊人地强，在另一些事上又差得离谱。

And the people who I think are going to make the most of it are the ones who are cleareyed about what AI is good at and what it's not good at and also have an instinct or a nose for what it will be good at and not good at, you know, not, you know, next month or in a couple months from now.

而我认为最能把 AI 用到极致的人，是那些对 AI 擅长什么、不擅长什么看得清清楚楚，同时对它将来会擅长什么、不擅长什么——不是下个月、就是往后一两个月——还有一种直觉或嗅觉的人。

you mentioned um that AI writes all our code now.

你刚提到 AI 现在替我们写掉了所有代码。

Someone tweeted this that's this idea that stuck with me for like months now of just like remember we used to be able to just write code for free.

有人发过一条推文，这个念头困扰了我好几个月了，大意就是：还记得吗，我们以前是可以免费随便写代码的。

I think you'll still be able to write code for free.

我觉得你以后还是能免费写代码的。

It'll just be with a smaller model.

只不过是用一个更小的模型罢了。

But yes,

但没错，

I guess that's true.

我想这倒是真的。

Like there's models that are close to free but it's like yeah that's crazy.

就是说，有些模型已经接近免费了，但那还是……对，太疯狂了。

Now it's just like

现在就变成了

but just think about think about the cost.

不过你就想想那个成本。

Think about what you pay for a a model now and how and what the level of intelligence you're getting from that model is and then at that same price point a year ago what were you getting at some point they will just the the incremental value is will be won't matter like you know you know we're getting there I think with small projects and programming like I I think the models will matter even beyond you know this week you've got fable and obviously mythos from Enthropic, but I spent a lot of time with that this week.

想想你现在为一个模型花多少钱、从这个模型得到的智能水平又是怎样的，然后在同样的价位上，一年前你能拿到的又是什么——到某个时刻，那点增量价值就会……就会变得无所谓了，你知道，我觉得在小项目和写程序这块我们正在接近那个点，我觉得模型会带来的差别甚至不止于此，你知道这一周你有了 Fable，当然还有 Anthropic 的 Mythos，我这周花了很多时间用它。

I'm it's for the first time I'm like, "Oh, I'm just talking to a much more technical, much smarter engineer than I am." You know, the next version, you know, you know, a year out of that model.

这是我头一次感觉，「哦，我这是在跟一个比我技术强得多、也聪明得多的工程师对话。」你想想它的下一个版本，想想这个模型一年之后的样子。

Do I need to pay for Frontier tokens, you know, for whatever, you know, anthropic model 6.0 is or is Fable just fine for all of my side projects?

我到底还需不需要为 Frontier token 付费，比如为不管叫什么的、Anthropic 6.0 模型付费，还是说 Fable 就足够应付我所有的 side project 了？

Probably just fine.

多半就足够了。

probably pretty pretty cheap by then, too.

而且到那时候多半也相当、相当便宜了。

Yeah.

是啊。

When Kevin Whale was on the podcast when he was CPO at uh OpenAI, he's he famously said, "This is the worst the model will ever be."

Kevin Whale 上我们播客的时候，他当时还是 OpenAI 的 CPO，他说过一句很有名的话：「模型只会是现在这个样子里最差的一次。」

Still hard to comprehend that.

这话到现在还是难以理解。

Wow.

哇。

That's it's only going to get better.

它只会越来越好。

So, on this point of uh token spend, ROI, and things like that,

那么,说到 token 花销、ROI 这类话题,

uh Meta was famous for this like leaderboard of token spend.

Meta 有个很出名的做法,就是搞了一个 token 花销的排行榜。

Um

嗯

it's a terrible idea.

这主意糟透了。

No leaderboards for token spend.

别搞什么 token 花销排行榜。

Okay.

好。

talk about that and just how do you think about just like budgets for engineers and product teams at this point?

聊聊这个吧,你现在是怎么看待给工程师和产品团队分配预算这件事的?

You just like spend as much as you want?

是想花多少就花多少吗?

Is it like there's a cap we have?

还是说我们有个上限?

Is there any sort of thing you've kind of figured out that works well?

有没有什么你已经摸索出来、觉得行之有效的做法?

Right now we've managed to get the costs rained in a little bit by like shutting down the silly things that we were doing.

现在我们已经把成本稍微控制住了一点,办法就是把那些没意义的事情停掉。

And so, you know, it's not that hard to build a token incinerator and that doesn't create a lot of value.

你知道,搭一个烧 token 的机器并不难,而这并不会创造多少价值。

And as soon as you actually look at the dollars in and value out, you might just be like, "Oh, that's just a bad idea." And so right now we don't have um token limits for for for our engineers actually I think for anybody really.

一旦你真的去看投入的美元和产出的价值,你可能就会想:"哦,这就是个馊主意。"所以现在我们对工程师其实没有设 token 上限,我想对任何人其实都没有。

Uh I think that'll eventually have to happen um particularly if costs go up before they go down.

呃,我觉得这最终还是得来,尤其是如果成本在下降之前先涨上去的话。

I think they'll eventually go down because for the reasons that we just talked about but I think of it like as any other resource right like I have to decide how to deploy capacity to my different teams because I have a limited number of GPUs and CPUs and storage and RAM etc.

我认为成本最终会下降,原因就是我们刚才聊到的那些,但我把它看成和其他任何资源一样,对吧,就像我得决定怎么把算力分配给不同的团队,因为我的 GPU、CPU、存储、RAM 等等数量都是有限的。

I have to decide how to deploy opex for labeling budgets across my teams.

我得决定怎么在各个团队之间分配标注预算的 opex。

I have to decide how to deploy payroll for headcount across my teams.

我得决定怎么在各个团队之间分配 headcount 的薪资。

I think that you can imagine at least in an year or two coming that the the burn rate of a strong engineer might be the same as their salary or their cost of employment.

我觉得你可以想象,至少在一两年内会出现这样的情况:一个强力工程师的烧钱速度可能和他的薪水、或者说雇佣他的成本差不多。

And if in that world like you're going to probably need to put in some caps.

在那样的世界里,你大概就得设一些上限了。

the cap should probably be com like a proportional to your sort of you know the company's sort of trust in your ability to use them in an ROI positive way but I can imagine caps being healthy right now we're not there uh I think costs will go up because we'll just be using more tokens not because prices will necessarily go up but then I think prices will come down because all of these frontier models are going to be in a bit of a pricing more.

这个上限大概应该跟公司对你能否以 ROI 为正的方式使用它们的信任程度成正比,但我能想象上限是健康的,现在我们还没到那一步,呃,我觉得成本会涨,是因为我们只是会用更多 token,不见得是价格会涨,但接着我觉得价格会降下来,因为所有这些前沿模型都会陷入一场价格战。

Um, so we'll see.

嗯,所以走着瞧吧。

I think it'll be a bit of a roller coaster.

我觉得这会像坐过山车一样。

So, coming back to this idea that as you said, we've evolved from we used to write all our code to now we're approaching all code will be written by AI.

那么,回到你刚才说的这个观点,我们已经从过去所有代码都由我们自己写,演进到现在正逼近所有代码都由 AI 来写。

And it feels like now the transition is it's not just written by AI, but it's like oneshotted by AI.

而且现在感觉这个转变不只是由 AI 来写,而是像被 AI 一次性搞定。

Like coding now is steering AI and it's like how often you have to correct it is is coding now.

现在写代码就是在引导 AI,而你得多频繁地去纠正它,这本身就成了现在的写代码。

And then there's uh so it's like the software development life cycle slowly being eaten by AI.

然后呢,呃,就好像整个软件开发生命周期正被 AI 一点点吞掉。

Uh it'll start helping us come up with ideas I imagine more and more.

我想它会越来越多地开始帮我们出点子。

The question I like to ask people is where do you think human brains will continue to be most valuable as AI continues to eat more and more of that product development life cycle.

我喜欢问大家一个问题:随着 AI 不断吞掉产品开发生命周期里越来越多的部分,你觉得人类的大脑会在哪些地方持续保持最有价值?

taste like we talked about um judgment particularly around strategy right like you're you're not you might get feedback from an AI on a strategy but you're not asking an AI to come up with a strategy anytime soon or if you are then it's within the context of bounds you set so here's my goal here's my vision here are my constraints here's my job here's my budget I think that you know it looks more like management right like you are trying to define what success looks like decide how prescriptive you want to be about the path to success and then giving feedback along the way and that is its own craft you know and you it'll be interesting to see how Matt you know you know some of the same dynamics come up like I believe that if you are too prescriptive as a leader with a team you end up stifling good ideas but if you're too open-ended sometimes teams just waste time um going in the wrong direction.

taste,就像我们聊过的,呃 judgment,尤其是围绕 strategy 的,对吧,你不会,你可能会就某个 strategy 从 AI 那里得到反馈,但短期内你不会让 AI 去想出一个 strategy,或者就算你让了,那也是在你设定的边界范围之内,所以这是我的目标、这是我的愿景、这是我的约束、这是我的职责、这是我的预算,我觉得这看起来更像是 management,对吧,你是在努力定义成功是什么样子、决定你想对通往成功的路径规定得多细,然后一路上给出反馈,而这本身就是一门手艺,你知道,而且会很有意思地看到,你知道,一些同样的动态会冒出来,比如我相信如果你作为一个 leader 对团队规定得太细,你最终会扼杀好点子,但如果你太放任,有时候团队又会白白浪费时间朝错误的方向走。

And so that level of autonomy you give a team like maybe that applies to, you know, agents in the future.

所以你给一个团队的那种自主程度,也许将来同样适用于 agent。

Um, particularly when we're talking not just about building something, but deciding what you build in the first place.

嗯,尤其是当我们谈的不只是造某样东西,而是一开始决定你要造什么的时候。

But I think of I think of vision as an articulation of the world or the or the state of the product you want to get to.

不过我把 vision 想成是对你想要抵达的那个世界、或者说那个产品状态的一种表述。

Then I think of strategy is an opinionated path to achieve that vision.

然后我把 strategy 想成是实现那个 vision 的一条有主见的路径。

If a strat strategy can't be like be the best or be amazing.

一个 strategy 不能只是要做到最好、或者要很出色。

It has to be controversial that you have to be a reasonable person should be able to disagree with it because otherwise you're probably just trying to compete on raw execution and I think there both vision and strategy I think are going to be where our brains are spending a lot of our more and more of our cycles and I think less on on execution.

它必须是有争议的,必须是一个讲道理的人也应该能够不同意它,因为否则你大概就只是在拼纯粹的执行了,而我觉得那样的话,vision 和 strategy 我都认为将会是我们大脑花越来越多心力的地方,而在执行上花得越来越少。

Something I have always thought is AI should be incredibly good at strategy.

我一直有个想法,就是 AI 在 strategy 上应该会极其擅长。

Because you would think here's the market, here's all the information on the market, our competitors, our metrics, our numbers, our growth, all these things.

因为你会觉得:这是市场,这是关于市场的所有信息、我们的竞争对手、我们的指标、我们的数字、我们的增长,所有这些东西。

Help me figure out how to win.

帮我想想怎么赢。

You think AI knowing all that would be really good at this.

你会以为知道了这一切的 AI 会非常擅长这件事。

I think it could be.

我觉得它是可以的。

I I have found it's not unless you steer it pretty aggressively.

但我发现它其实不行,除非你相当强势地去引导它。

And I don't mean towards an answer.

我说的不是把它往某个答案上引。

I mean based on the constraints.

我是说基于那些约束去引导。

It turns out when you're trying to come up with a strategy, there's a lot of things to consider, right?

事实证明,当你想要想出一个 strategy 时,要考虑的东西太多了,对吧?

You need to consider the state of the technology, the personnel on the team and what's motivating them and what you can get.

你得考虑技术的现状、团队里的人员以及是什么在驱动他们、你能招到什么样的人。

You know, sometimes coming up with a idea that is on the bubble, you know, it's going to actually attract some of the best talent and so that kind of like that kind of the push then goes to the idea.

你知道,有时候想出一个处于边缘、拿不太准的点子,反而真的能吸引到一些最顶尖的人才,于是那种推动力就会转到这个点子上去。

uh obviously the competitive landscape, the regulatory landscape for companies as large as ours and the compliance landscape, the identity and reason to exist for the brand.

呃很显然还有竞争格局、对我们这么大体量的公司而言的监管格局和合规格局、品牌的身份认同和存在理由。

Um, you know, you have to consider all of these things.

嗯,你知道,你得把所有这些东西都考虑进去。

I think if you ask an AI just for a strategy lazily, you're not going to get something great.

我觉得如果你只是偷懒地向 AI 要一个 strategy,你是不会得到什么了不起的东西的。

You're going to get something pretty predictable that probably the competition would expect you to do.

你会得到一些相当可预测的东西,大概竞争对手也会预料到你会这么做。

I think if you want a really more effective one, you need to think long and hard about what are all the different inputs that need to be considered.

我觉得如果你想要一个真正更有效的 strategy,你就需要花很长时间认真去想:所有需要被考虑进来的不同输入到底有哪些。

Make sure you steer the AI in a way that it's considering those as well.

确保你以一种能让它也把那些也考虑进去的方式去引导 AI。

And it needs to be a conversation and the back and forth.

而且这得是一场对话,一来一回。

But I think if you're willing to put in the work and the time, it can definitely be helpful and definitely be clarifying.

但我觉得如果你愿意投入功夫和时间,它绝对能帮上忙,也绝对能帮你理清思路。

Um, particularly if you tell it to be critical.

嗯,尤其是如果你让它挑刺、给批评意见的话。

Different models have very different vibes though on Yeah.

不过不同的模型在这方面 vibe 差别很大,对吧,是的。

How willing they are to be pushed back.

看它们有多愿意跟你唱反调。

So I I recommend picking one that likes pushing back.

所以我建议挑一个喜欢反驳你的。

Yeah.

是啊。

Mythos has gotten really good at being like, I can't do this.

Mythos 现在已经很擅长直接说：这个我做不了。

Let's let's move on.

咱们跳过吧。

Like uh there's all these

就像，有一堆这种

fun has always been a little bit of a jerk in a way that I actually appreciate.

它一直有点像个刺头，而这一点我其实挺欣赏的。

I truly

我真的

I appreciate it.

我很欣赏这一点。

I really do because I don't want one that's just like, "Oh, you're so right.

我是真的欣赏，因为我不想要那种一上来就说“哦，你说得太对了。

I'm so sorry I said that." It's like, "No, hold on.

真抱歉我那样说了”的。我更想要它说“不，等一下”。

I want I want, you know, I want the real real sort of intelligence.

我想要的是那种真正、真正意义上的智能。

I don't want the pleaser.

我不要一味讨好的那种。

This point you made about people being excited about the strategy is such an interesting one.

你刚才说到大家会对策略感到兴奋，这个观点特别有意思。

There's this idea that I read I think Cy Corey Doctr wrote this.

我读到过一个说法，我记得好像是 Cory Doctorow 写的。

There's this kind of concept of a centaur centaur and a reverse centaur.

有这么一个概念，叫 centaur（半人马）和 reverse centaur（反向半人马）。

So centaur is a human body horse.

centaur 是人的身体、马的身体——

This is going somewhere I promise.

我保证这是有意义的。

Uh human body uh horse sorry human upper part lower part

呃，人的身体，呃，马，不对，是人的上半身、下半身

horse body.

马的身体。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Horse body where the human is in charge.

马的身体，而由人来做主。

And that's kind of we prefer that we want to be in charge.

这某种程度上正是我们想要的——我们想掌控局面。

reverse end chart, which is what we want to avoid with AI, is where the AI is controlling us and we're just doing its bidding.

而 reverse centaur，也就是我们在用 AI 时想要避免的那种，是 AI 在控制我们，我们只是听命于它行事。

It's a horse head on a human body.

那是长在人身体上的一个马头。

Yeah, exactly.

对，正是如此。

It's terrifying.

那太吓人了。

Like in a sense like Uber drivers and Door Dash people kind of this is their life, which is not great

某种意义上，Uber 司机和 DoorDash 送餐员的生活多少就是这样，这可不太妙

and this is the danger thing for a lot of people is like like if it's giving us the strategy and telling us here's what we're built, like no one's gonna want to do that.

对很多人来说这才是危险所在——如果是它给我们定策略、告诉我们该怎么做，那没人会愿意干那种活。

So that's a really interesting counterpoint to we don't want AI to be telling us the strategy almost.

所以这其实是一个很有意思的反面观点：我们几乎是不希望 AI 来给我们定策略的。

Yeah.

是啊。

No, I I I think there's a lot of things to be careful about right now.

不，我觉得眼下有很多地方需要小心。

And I would certainly not just assume that because you might be able to outsource some workflow to AI that you should.

我绝不会仅仅因为某个工作流程也许能外包给 AI，就想当然地认为你就该这么做。

Um there are certain ones where I think it's really just a win-win.

有些场景我觉得确实就是双赢。

There are certain ones where I think is the risk outweighs the benefits.

也有些场景我觉得风险大过收益。

This episode is brought to you by Mercury.

本期节目由 Mercury 赞助。

Radically different banking loved by over 300,000 entrepreneurs and now with command.

一种截然不同的银行服务，深受超过 300,000 名创业者喜爱，如今还推出了 Command。

I've been a customer of Mercury's for over 6 years.

我做 Mercury 的客户已经超过 6 年了。

I have never once thought about leaving.

我一次都没动过要离开的念头。

Mercury is basically what happens when banking is built by product people, not by bankers.

Mercury 基本上就是银行服务由做产品的人、而不是由银行家来打造时会有的样子。

They make it so easy, dare I say fun, to send invoices, move money around, set up virtual cards for folks on my team.

他们让开发票、转账、给我团队里的人办虚拟卡这些事变得如此简单，我甚至敢说是有趣。

Does your bank have an API, a terminal native CLI, or an AI ready MCP server?

你的银行有 API、有原生的终端 CLI、或者一个 AI 就绪的 MCP server 吗？

I don't think so.

我看是没有。

And just recently, they launched Command, a conversational interface built directly into Mercury, which acts as your financial operator.

而且就在最近，他们推出了 Command，一个直接内置在 Mercury 里的对话式界面，它就像是你的财务操盘手。

I've been using Command to transfer money around to figure out what categories I've been spending the most money in, analyze my cash flows, and just today, I used it to find out how much I've made from a specific sponsor over the past year.

我一直在用 Command 转账、搞清楚自己在哪些类目上花钱最多、分析我的现金流，就在今天，我还用它查出过去一年从某个特定赞助商那里赚了多少。

I just asked, "How much have I made from X over the past year?" 10 seconds later, I have an answer.

我就直接问：“过去一年我从 X 那里赚了多少？”10 秒后，我就有了答案。

It is so freaking cool.

这也太酷了。

Visit mercury.com to learn more and apply online in minutes.

访问 mercury.com 了解更多，几分钟内即可在线申请。

Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC insured bank.

Mercury 是一家金融科技公司，不是一家受 FDIC 保险的银行。

Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and column NA members FDIC.

银行服务由 Choice Financial Group 和 Column N.A. 提供，均为 FDIC 成员。

Okay, going back to product leadership, things you've learned along your journey.

好，回到产品领导力，回到你一路走来学到的东西。

Uh, we were chatting ahead of this about just things you've learned and one thing that you said about some of the product the best product leaders you've worked with is that they're less visionary and more curators.

呃，我们在录制前聊到过你学到的一些东西，你说到你共事过的一些最优秀的产品领导者，有一点是他们不那么像有远见的 visionary，而更像 curators（策展人）。

I'd love to hear more along these lines.

我很想沿着这个方向多听你讲讲。

Yeah, I mean you do sometimes find amazing product leaders who are who are just like idea machines, just prolific idea machines.

是的，我是说，你有时确实会碰到一些了不起的产品领导者，他们就是点子机器，源源不断的点子机器。

But I do think a lot of the best are have have taste are have something about them that really makes wants makes really strong talent want to work with them but end up sort of being curators.

但我确实认为，很多最优秀的人是有 taste 的，是身上有某种东西真正让顶尖人才愿意跟着他们干，但最终他们扮演的其实是 curator 的角色。

curators of people, curators of ideas, curators of technologies, curators of strategies, because I don't really care if I'm hiring a strong lead for an area if the strategy comes from them or comes from somebody else.

策展人——对人的策展、对点子的策展、对技术的策展、对策略的策展，因为我在为某个领域招一位强力负责人时，我真的不在乎策略是出自他还是出自别人。

I just care that there is a amazing strategy and everyone has bought into it and that the and then we're executing against that strategy well.

我只在乎有一个了不起的策略、所有人都认同它，而且我们在很好地执行这个策略。

And so I think that some of the best product leaders, yes, have ideas.

所以我觉得，一些最优秀的产品领导者，是的，是有自己的点子的。

It's hard to be a great curator if you don't have some of your own ideas, but are that embrace the reality that they can't come up with everything themselves.

如果你自己一点点子都没有，是很难成为一个出色的 curator 的，但他们能坦然接受一个现实：自己没法什么都想出来。

And so they need to create an environment in which great ideas bubble up and are uh chosen or decided upon.

所以他们需要营造一种环境，让好点子能冒出来，并被挑选或拍板决定。

And so, you know, I think it's not just about curating ideas, but it's sometimes about curating teams and people.

所以，你知道，我觉得这不仅仅是策展点子，有时也是策展团队和人。

I love that.

我太喜欢这个说法了。

I so agree.

我太认同了。

I feel like everyone's always joining a team and they just want to do vision strategy just like not actually hands-on work and no AI is coming in here.

我感觉每个人加入一个团队，都只想做愿景、做策略，就是不想真正动手干活，而且这里可没有 AI 进来。

Let me do the strategy.

让我来做策略。

Exactly.

正是。

And I love this point that there's so much power and value and people underestimate just the the need for just like a really good curator of of the team's ideas.

而我很喜欢这个观点：这里面有巨大的力量和价值，而人们低估了——就是那种真正出色地策展团队点子的人的必要性。

Yeah.

是啊。

Sometimes it's also sometimes it's not just who's good or what idea is good.

有时候，关键也不只是谁厉害、哪个点子好。

It's also what is going to work given the broader context.

还在于放在更大的背景下什么才行得通。

So for instance on team building a huge thing that I'm always considering is not just like is this person a really strong candidate for this role.

比如说，在组建团队时，我一直在考虑的一件大事不只是这个人是不是这个岗位一个非常强的候选人。

it is how does this person fit into their leadership team you know so if I you know for some an area like trust and safety you know I have an engineering lead I have a product staff lead I have a data science lead I have a design lead I have a research lead you know I need to make sure that those five complement each other I need to make and that's you know about what skills each one has what weaknesses each one might have I also need to make sure that they um this is more art than science have a good vibe, right?

而是这个人如何融入他们所在的领导团队——你知道，比如像 trust and safety 这样一个领域，我有一位工程负责人、一位产品负责人、一位数据科学负责人、一位设计负责人、一位研究负责人，我得确保这五个人彼此互补，我得——这就涉及每个人有什么技能、每个人可能有什么短板，我还得确保他们——这个更多是艺术而非科学——彼此气场对得上，对吧？

You know, you need, you know, trust and rapport.

你知道，你需要信任和默契。

A leadership team with strong trust and rapport can work through most anything.

一个有着强信任和默契的领导团队，几乎什么难关都能闯过去。

A leadership team without trust or rapport, like anything can become an issue.

一个缺乏信任或默契的领导团队，那简直什么事都能变成问题。

And so that that chemistry bit is is is like I said much more art than science, but that also matters.

所以那种化学反应，就像我说的，远远更像是艺术而非科学，但它同样很重要。

And so I think some of the best leaders and product leaders specifically also either do that instinctively or consciously, but you know they have a they have a nose for for building teams that are going to have good energy and um good collaboration,

所以我觉得，一些最优秀的领导者、尤其是产品领导者，要么是凭本能、要么是有意识地在做这件事，但你知道，他们对组建那种会有好能量、好协作的团队，有一种敏锐的嗅觉，

warm and fuzzy stuff.

那些暖心又软乎乎的东西。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

对。

Well, the flip is also true, right?

反过来其实也成立，对吧？

Like I've I've had many times in my career I've had two people who I think are amazing and I even adore them and love them and they just can't get along.

比如我职业生涯里有很多次，碰到两个我都觉得很了不起、我甚至很喜爱、很欣赏的人，可他们俩就是合不来。

You're like this isn't a competency issue.

你会意识到，这不是能力问题。

This is just a personality issue and you just have to just sometimes call it and split them.

这纯粹是性格问题，有时候你就只能拍板，把他们分开。

I want to transition talk to talk about Instagram the product the platform things you guys have learned there.

我想转个话题，来聊聊 Instagram——这个产品、这个平台，以及你们在这上面学到的东西。

Let me start with this question.

让我先从这个问题开始。

What's

什么是

One of the most common misconceptions is actually in the opposite direction.

最常见的误解之一,其实恰恰是反过来的。

I think people assume that there's a much more detailed semantic understanding of everybody's interests and preferences in the algorithm than there is.

我觉得大家会以为,algorithm 对每个人的兴趣和偏好有一套非常细致的 semantic 理解,但其实并没有那么细。

Most of what's really driven the progress in the world of recommenders over the last 5 10 years have been, you know, these large embedding models and these other techniques that basically produce artifacts that cannot be read by people.

过去五到十年里,真正推动 recommender 领域进步的,你懂的,主要是那些大型 embedding 模型和其他一些技术,它们本质上产出的是人类根本读不懂的东西。

They're not legible.

它们是不可读的。

They're like giant vectors.

它们就像是巨大的向量。

It's like, sure, I can show you the vector, but it's just going to be a bunch of numbers in like a seven dimensional space.

就好比,我当然可以把向量给你看,但那不过是一堆数字,存在于一个大概七维的空间里。

It's like, and so when when we talk about does the algorithm know something, usually we think in these more semantic terms.

所以说,当我们讨论 algorithm 是不是知道某件事时,我们通常是用这种更偏 semantic 的方式在想。

It knows I like surfing and it's like it doesn't.

以为它知道我喜欢冲浪,但其实它不知道。

It just has this big ass number that happens to correlate with surfing.

它只是有一个超大的数字,而这个数字恰好跟冲浪相关联而已。

Um, that said, I think that is starting to change, right?

不过话说回来,我觉得这一点正在开始改变,对吧?

I think that what one of the things that LLMs are enabling is they can describe in you know words you know English for or whatever language you prefer what some of those previously illeible artifacts um are at least approximate to if not mean directly right so this is like the thing I've been really I posted about this this week this thing called your algorithm basically the idea is we take a look at all of the stuff that you've interacted with.

我觉得 LLM 带来的一件事,就是它们能用文字,你懂的,用英语,或者你喜欢的任何语言,来描述那些以前不可读的产出物大概是什么,哪怕不是精确的含义,至少也是近似的,对吧?所以这就是我最近特别在琢磨的东西,我这周还发过帖子,叫做'你的 algorithm',基本思路是,我们去看你互动过的所有内容。

And then you know we all of that is in an embedding space.

然后你懂的,所有这些东西都在一个 embedding 空间里。

You can think of embedding space as a map.

你可以把 embedding 空间想象成一张地图。

You can map a bunch of videos into the same map.

你可以把一堆视频映射到同一张地图上。

And so videos that are close or similar.

于是那些位置相近的视频就是相似的。

And now we can just have an LLM just be like describe that part of the map.

现在我们只需要让一个 LLM 来'描述地图的这一部分'。

And it can be like oh that is like deep pourover coffee snobbery.

它就能说,哦,这块是那种痴迷手冲咖啡的资深发烧友。

Um and that's kind of amazing.

嗯,这挺神奇的。

That is so cool

这太酷了

that like you can ask the LM to look at these numbers and extrapolate.

就是说你可以让 LLM 去看这些数字然后推断出来。

here's like the topic that you're interested in.

喏,这就是你感兴趣的话题。

Yeah.

对。

Or look at the videos.

或者去看那些视频。

And so the way you um both So you can also embed concepts into that same space.

所以你既可以这样,你也可以把概念也 embed 到同一个空间里。

And so I mean embeddings are really the underlying technology underneath LLMs, right?

所以我是说,embedding 其实就是 LLM 底层的核心技术,对吧?

That's how all the whole thing works.

整套东西就是这么运作的。

And so you know, so what what we what we what we do now is we let you, you know, quote unquote see your algorithm.

所以你懂的,我们现在做的事,就是让你能够所谓地'看见你的 algorithm'。

You can see what topics we think you're interested in.

你能看到我们认为你感兴趣的话题。

Um and you can adjust it.

而且你可以调整它。

You can add and remove things, but the idea here giving people some agency back in a world where, you know, these social media apps are getting taken over by recommendations, but we can't do a lot of other things yet, which we will be able to do.

你可以增加和删除条目,但这里的想法是,把一些主动权还给用户,在这样一个 social media app 越来越被 recommendation 接管的世界里,不过我们现在还做不了很多别的事,但将来能做到。

You know, you could there's things that aren't topical that you might ask for.

你懂的,有些不是话题类的东西你也可能想要求。

I want more fun content.

我想要更多有趣的内容。

I want to see my friends more.

我想更多地看到我的朋友。

I don't want to see my high school's kids friends kids photos.

我不想看我高中同学的孩子的照片。

You know, I don't know.

你懂的,我也说不好。

We can come up with I don't want to see seven photos in a row, but I'm happy to see six photos in a whatever your heart can, you know, whatever your mind can come up with.

我们可以设想,比如我不想连续看到七张照片,但连着看六张我倒是乐意,随便你的心怎么想,你懂的,随便你的脑子能想出什么。

So, we have a lot of work to do.

所以,我们还有很多工作要做。

And so, I'm excited about that.

所以,我对这件事很兴奋。

But, um, I think a misconception historically is until recently, we don't really know as much about you as you think.

但是,嗯,我觉得历史上的一个误解是,直到最近之前,我们其实并没有你想象的那么了解你。

We were just like, oh, like you liked these photos, this these people also like those same photos and they like these other photos, so you might like those other photos.

我们当时只是,哦,你点赞了这些照片,这些人也点赞了同样这些照片,而他们还点赞了另外那些照片,所以你可能也会喜欢那另外那些照片。

Like that's kind of how I'm oversimplifying, but that's like

就是这样,我是在过度简化,但差不多就是

yeah,

对,

kind of how it worked.

差不多就是这么运作的。

Now only now are we actually getting as sophisticated as I think people have assumed we've been for many years.

直到现在,我们才真正做到了大家以为我们很多年前就已经具备的那种精密程度。

That is really interesting.

这真的很有意思。

One that comes to mind is kind of this transition everyone eventually goes through to this like algorithmic broad global feed.

我想到的一点,是几乎每个人最终都会经历的那种转变,转向这种 algorithmic 的、广泛的全局 feed。

Uh everyone it always feels like people think I just want to see chronologically everyone I know and follow and that's going to be my favorite feed and it continues to be proven wrong.

呃,大家总是觉得,我只想按时间顺序看到我认识和关注的每一个人,那才会是我最喜欢的 feed,可这个想法一次次被证明是错的。

No, you actually engage a lot more a lot more when it's this algorithmic feed of things we think you will love.

不对,当它变成这种由我们认为你会喜欢的内容组成的 algorithmic feed 时,你的 engagement 其实会高很多、高很多。

Yeah, it's tough because I mean I get I mean I posted this week this thing about agency and I just got destroyed in the comments which is just part of the job.

对,这事挺难的,因为我这周发了一篇关于主动权的东西,结果在评论区被喷得体无完肤,不过这也是工作的一部分。

I get it right.

我理解的,对吧。

Um do you there's but there are a couple issues with the algorith with the chronological feed.

嗯,你有没有chronological feed 是有几个问题的。

So one is and some of this is the tension between an individual's interests and what works when you scale it up, right?

第一个是,而且其中一部分是个人兴趣与规模化之后什么才行得通之间的张力,对吧?

So if you do a pure chronological feed, the incentive for everybody is to just post as much as possible uh because it will always be at the top of everyone who follows you's feed as soon as you post.

所以如果你做一个纯 chronological 的 feed,对每个人的激励就是尽可能多地发帖,因为只要你一发,它就总会排在所有关注你的人 feed 的最顶端。

So what ends up happening is that the feed gets overwhelmed with professional content with usually large company content and publishers because they get, you know, the New York Times can pump out 50 things a day.

所以最终的结果就是,feed 被专业内容淹没,通常是大公司的内容和出版机构,因为他们,你懂的,New York Times 一天能生产 50 条东西。

your your best friend won't you might get one thing a week from them and so your fee just gets taken over.

而你最好的朋友不会,你一周可能才从他们那里看到一条,于是你的 feed 就被接管了。

Um so part of it is the incentives that emerge because when you when you design these systems it's almost like designing a city.

嗯,所以其中一部分是这些涌现出来的激励机制,因为当你设计这类系统时,几乎就像是在设计一座城市。

You need to think about okay here's the here are the here's how the mechanics work.

你得想清楚,好,这里的这些运作机制是怎样的。

What are the incentives that arise?

会产生哪些激励?

How are people going to act within those incentives?

人们在这些激励下会怎么行动?

And then what happens?

然后会发生什么?

And the other thing is sometimes the most interesting thing was just not the most recent thing.

另一件事是,有时候最有意思的东西并不是最新的东西。

Recency is an important input into relevance, but it's not the only one.

时效性是 relevance 的一个重要输入,但它不是唯一的。

My sister got engaged last night and you know she's in Germany.

我妹妹昨晚订婚了,你懂的,她在德国。

No, she didn't.

不,她没有。

If she did, she's married.

要是她订婚了,那她就是结婚了。

She got married last year.

她去年结婚了。

That's why it was top of mind.

所以这事才一直挂在我心上。

All right.

好吧。

But if she got engaged, you know, and I missed it because she lives in Europe and you know, we're different time differences.

但假如她订婚了,你懂的,而我因为她住在欧洲、我们有时差,结果错过了。

Like, do I really want to see a picture of like my brother's pobo sandwich, you know, poboy sandwich, or do I want to like see my sister's things first?

那么,我是真的想看一张我哥哥的 poboy 三明治的照片呢,还是想先看到我妹妹的动态?

So, I I It's tough.

所以我我这事挺难的。

It's tough.

挺难的。

I'd love to figure out a way to find the right balance.

我很想找到一个办法来拿捏好那个平衡。

I want to give people agency over the experience, but I think it needs to be in a way that creates a system that makes sense, not just for us as a business, which matters.

我想给用户对体验的主动权,但我觉得这得用一种能形成一个合理系统的方式来做,不只是对我们作为一门生意合理,虽然生意也重要。

I'm not pretending that's not an issue, but also for the overall community because we've done chronological by default and where you can make it default and you see not only does usage go down, overall sentiment goes down.

我并不是假装那不是个问题,但也得对整个 community 合理,因为我们做过默认 chronological、以及可以设成默认的情况,你会看到不仅使用量下降,整体的情绪评价也下降。

the individual who made that choice might be happy at the moment, but when you just get pummeled with stuff you're less interested in over the course of months, we ask, we run surveys at massive scales, we just see people start to become less and less satisfied with Instagram.

做出那个选择的个人此刻或许很开心,但当你在好几个月里不断被你不太感兴趣的东西轰炸时,我们会去问,我们大规模地做问卷调查,我们就会看到人们对 Instagram 的满意度开始变得越来越低。

Kind of along these lines, uh, everybody asks you about this these days, uh, AI and content and how that all impacts everything that's going on.

顺着这个思路,呃,现在每个人都在问你这个问题——AI、内容,以及这一切如何影响当下正在发生的种种。

I want to ask you something I haven't seen someone ask you.

我想问你一个我还没见过别人问过你的问题。

Is the rise of AI content uh a headwind or a tailwind for Instagram versus other platforms?

AI 内容的崛起,对 Instagram 来说,相较于其他平台,究竟是 headwind 还是 tailwind?

Do you think this helps or hurts you guys?

你觉得这对你们是帮助,还是伤害?

I think it's going to be a challenge.

我觉得这会是个挑战。

It's And not just because it's more content.

而且不只是因为内容变多了。

Obviously, we're an attention business driven business.

显然,我们是一门靠注意力驱动的生意。

We're an advertising business.

我们是一门广告生意。

More content means potentially more attention.

内容更多,意味着潜在的注意力也更多。

It that's not for free, though.

不过,这可不是白来的。

Like, I don't think we're very good at ranking AI content yet.

比如说,我觉得我们目前还不太擅长对 AI 内容做排序。

There's great AI content.

有很棒的 AI 内容。

There's crap AI content.

也有很垃圾的 AI 内容。

you should just see the stuff you're interested in and not any of the stuff you're not interested in.

你应该只看到你感兴趣的东西,而不是任何你不感兴趣的东西。

But I do think that in a world where or for years now and I've said this many times, power shifting from institutions to individuals across industries, the easiest example is sports where players are more relevant than teams now.

但我确实认为,在这样一个世界里——其实这些年来我已经说过很多次了——各行各业的权力正从机构转移到个人身上,最容易理解的例子就是体育,如今球员比球队更有影响力。

And that was not the case when I was a kid.

而在我小时候,情况根本不是这样的。

In that world, you're gonna I think it behooves us to invest in individuals and to invest in specifically for Instagram and creators.

在那样的世界里,我认为我们理应去投资于个人,尤其对 Instagram 来说,要投资于 creator。

And I mean creators broadly.

而我说的 creator 是广义的。

I don't just mean influencers who are promoting branded content and making, you know, native only videos.

我指的不只是那些推广品牌内容、做原生视频的 influencer。

I mean anybody who's using platforms like Instagram to help do what they do, right?

我指的是任何借助 Instagram 这类平台来帮助自己做事的人,对吧?

It could be you could be a journalist, you could be an artist, you could be selling scarves you sew, but like you're out there as yourself.

你可能是一名记者,可能是一位艺术家,也可能在卖自己缝制的围巾,但关键是你是以你自己的身份出现在那里,

for creating and sharing content that helps you achieve whatever it is you're trying to do.

去创作和分享那些能帮你实现目标的内容。

So, we've been leaning in that direction for many years now.

所以,这些年来我们一直在朝这个方向倾斜。

That's been our, you know, one of our two or three most important audiences for as long as I've been on Instagram.

自我加入 Instagram 以来,这一直是我们两三个最重要的受众群体之一。

In a world where there's an abundance of synthetic content, I actually think people are going to seek out creativity and authenticity and people [snorts] more, not less.

在一个 synthetic content 泛滥的世界里,我其实认为人们会更多地、而非更少地去寻求创造力、authenticity 和真实的人 [轻笑]。

And I think that that will help us.

而我认为这会对我们有帮助。

That doesn't mean that we won't have AI content on our platform.

这并不意味着我们的平台上不会有 AI 内容。

There's going to be bad and good AI content and we're going to try and handle that, you know, the way we normally handle content.

会有糟糕的和优秀的 AI 内容,而我们会试着去处理它,你知道的,就像我们平常处理内容那样。

So unsafe goes away.

所以不安全的内容会被移除。

Interesting versus not interesting is based on ranking and personalization.

有趣还是无趣,则取决于排序和个性化。

Um, but I think people are going to really seek out other points of view because Instagram was never just about the content.

呃,但我认为人们真的会去寻求不同的观点,因为 Instagram 从来就不只是关乎内容本身。

It was always about to a certain degree the person behind the content, the point of view, the reason they're sharing it, their perspective.

它在某种程度上始终关乎内容背后的那个人、那个视角、他们分享的理由、他们的看法。

And I think that's going to become more important, not less.

而我认为这会变得更重要,而不是更不重要。

And I think given that we are not the best at a lot of things, but we are the largest uh creator platform, you know, you know, if you look at how we define creators and how many creators use us versus other platforms, I think it'll be a tailwind for us because I think people are going to seek out people.

而且考虑到我们虽然在很多方面都不是最强的,但我们是最大的 creator 平台——你知道的,如果你看看我们如何定义 creator,以及有多少 creator 在用我们而非其他平台,我觉得这对我们会是 tailwind,因为我认为人们会去寻求真实的人。

And this connects to your earlier point that uh companies uh like say New York Times can pump out a bunch of AI content versus a creator.

这跟你前面提到的一点是相连的:呃,像纽约时报这样的公司,可以大量炮制 AI 内容,而 creator 却做不到那么多。

And so you're saying you kind of want to protect against that, too.

所以你的意思是,你也想在某种程度上防范这一点。

Allow individuals to continue to perform well in spite of just all this AI content.

让个人能够继续有好的表现,而不被这一大堆 AI 内容淹没。

If you just love AI content, great.

如果你就是爱看 AI 内容,那很好。

Like, you should be able to have a feed that's just like AI town.

比如说,你应该可以拥有一个完全就是 "AI 小镇" 那样的 feed。

And if you don't, then you shouldn't have it in your feed.

而如果你不喜欢,那它就不该出现在你的 feed 里。

Like, you know, to me, it's like I don't think we should I mean, I understand why people are, right?

对我来说,这就像是——我不认为我们应该……我是说,我理解人们为什么会那样,对吧?

There's a I'm not oblivious to the overall paradigm shift and sort of revolution that we're sitting in.

我并非对我们身处的这场整体范式转变和某种革命毫无察觉。

But I don't think we should judge content based on the tool that made it.

但我不认为我们应该根据制作内容所用的工具来评判内容。

Um I think we should judge it based on the content, the point of view, the person behind the content.

呃,我认为我们应该根据内容本身、根据视角、根据内容背后的那个人来评判它。

Like I don't I don't think we should filter out AI content.

比如说,我不……我不认为我们应该把 AI 内容过滤掉。

I think we should let you know if content is AI content or not.

我认为我们应该让你知道某条内容是不是 AI 内容。

I think we should let you know more about the person who posted anything so that you can make informed decisions about whether or not to believe or trust them based on, you know, knowing who they are or where they are or how many times they've changed their profile or, you know, you know, if their profile is three days old or three years old.

我认为我们应该让你更多地了解发布任何内容的那个人,这样你就能基于自己的判断,决定是否相信或信任他们——你知道的,基于了解他们是谁、身在何处、改过多少次头像,或者说他们的账号是三天前还是三年前建的。

Um, but I don't think we should be making value judgments based on what tool you used.

呃,但我不认为我们应该根据你用了什么工具来做价值评判。

Is there an AI uh content creator you love that you're just like, "This is so good.

有没有哪个你特别喜欢的 AI 内容 creator,让你觉得 "这也太棒了。

I love watching these AI videos." Yeah.

我超爱看这些 AI 视频"?对。

What is she called?

她叫什么来着?

Plastic plastic dream sequence.

Plastic……plastic dream sequence。

Is that what it is?

是这个名字吗?

Um I think I'll check the name.

呃,我得查一下名字。

Yeah.

对。

Plastic dream.

Plastic dream。

Uh

呃……

um plastic dream sequence.

呃,plastic dream sequence。

I have it on my phone.

我手机里存着。

I'll double check.

我再确认一下。

Um it's these like uh like sort of dolls, Barbies, but they're like singing songs and these little tiny little silhouettes and snippets.

呃,就是那种……呃,有点像洋娃娃、芭比,但它们在唱歌,还有那些小小的剪影和片段。

And it's just it's just amazing.

简直太惊艳了。

It's like a little weird, but like also kind of amazing.

有点怪,但也确实挺惊艳的。

And it's it's very clearly AI.

而且它很明显是 AI 做的。

It's not pretending not to be, but it's has a very clear creative and aesthetic point of view.

它并没有假装自己不是 AI,但它有一个非常清晰的创意和美学视角。

And every time I come by one, I'm like, "Yep, we're doing this now.

每次我刷到一条,我都会想 "没错,我们现在就干这个了。

I'm going to watch this for 30 seconds."

我要看它个 30 秒。"

I have it pulled up here.

我这儿已经把它调出来了。

And I don't I want to watch it, but I'm not going to.

我很想看它,但我忍住不看。

That's awesome.

太棒了。

If Only AI, that's another one.

If Only AI,这是另一个。

He's out of He's in France.

他在……他在法国。

I think he's in Paris.

我记得他在巴黎。

He uses multiple different tools and models, but he kind of tries to create these dreamscapes and animate them.

他用了好几种不同的工具和模型,不过他大体上是想创造出这些梦境般的场景,再让它们动起来。

So he create uses one model to create the image, another one to create the video, music, etc.

所以他会用一个模型来生成图像,再用另一个来生成视频、音乐等等。

Uh he's like very clearly got his own aesthetic.

呃,他很明显有自己独特的美学。

Um u and he's just like you could you could think of him as a painter, but like this is his tool.

呃,他就像是——你可以把他想成一位画家,只不过这就是他的工具。

Is there kind of a vision of AI versus human in the feed?

在 feed 里,关于 AI 与人类的对比,你有没有某种设想?

Do you think it'll like you said you maybe want to market like how do you think about people?

你觉得会不会像你说的那样——你或许想去标记……你是怎么看待 "人" 这件事的?

Are they going to be like AI count, not AI count?

他们会不会被分成 AI 账号、非 AI 账号这样?

How do you think about or is that still kind of a work in progress?

你是怎么想的,还是说这仍然算是个进行中的课题?

Maybe we'll end up in the same place, but there's a difference between marking content and marking accounts and they're both useful and interesting.

也许我们最终会走到同一个地方,但标记内容和标记账号之间是有区别的,而这两者都既有用又有意思。

So, if content was created with AI, I think you should be able to know that.

所以,如果一条内容是用 AI 创作的,我认为你应该能够知道这一点。

That's hard by the way because we can detect that right now, but as these models get better, we might lose the ability to detect that.

顺便说一句,这很难,因为我们现在能检测出来,但随着这些模型越来越强,我们可能会失去检测它的能力。

So, we should also be very careful to be honest with you about how confident we are in our own sort of assessment.

所以,我们也应该非常谨慎,对你坦诚我们对自己的判断到底有多大把握。

Um, but I think you should be able to just ask be like, "Hey, is this AI?" And we should be able to tell you.

呃,但我认为你应该可以直接问,比如 "嘿,这是 AI 吗?" 然后我们应该能告诉你。

We think it probably is or we're not sure or it's definitely not or it definitely is.

我们觉得它很可能是,或者我们不确定,或者它肯定不是,又或者它肯定是。

I actually think we might be might be more practical to to label camera captured content like basically non-AI content as opposed to labeling AI content long term for a couple of reasons.

我其实认为,从长远看,标记 "相机拍摄的内容"——基本上就是非 AI 内容——可能比标记 AI 内容更实际,原因有几个。

But then at the account level, I think it also matters.

不过在账号层面,我认为这同样重要。

There is definitely an a new spam vector which is these fake accounts which by the way an AI creator that's fine there's nothing wrong with that necessarily but there is there are these spam vectors which are trying to abuse that and you know they're selling like you know bogus supplements and it's like an AI monk and it doesn't present it's not obvious that it's an AI and it's just trying to like take advantage of you know a certain aesthetic or a certain sort of stereotype like we need to figure out how to crack down on that And so I do think I do think we should be making sure that you know basically you just need to know and then you can make your own informed decision.

现在确实出现了一种新的 spam 手段,就是这些假账号——顺便说一句,一个 AI creator 是没问题的,那本身并没有什么错——但确实存在这些试图滥用这一点的 spam 手段,你知道的,他们在卖那种,你知道的,假冒的保健品,弄个 AI 和尚之类的形象,而它并不表明……它并不明显地告诉你它是 AI,只是想利用某种美学或某种刻板印象,像这种我们就需要想办法去打击。所以我确实认为,我们应该确保,你知道的,基本上你只需要知道情况,然后就能自己做出明智的判断。

Is the account a real person or not?

这个账号到底是不是真人?

Is the content a real piece of content or not?

这条内容到底是不是一条真实的内容?

When you think about other platforms uh in the space social you know content platforms are there any um features or just or like ways of of of approaching stuff that they do well that you're kind of jealous of or really impressed by?

说到这个领域里的其他平台,那些社交、内容类平台,有没有什么功能,或者他们做事的某种方式,是你特别羡慕、或者印象特别深刻的?

Yeah, there's a bunch.

有啊,很多。

everybody.

每个人都是。

So many people do so much because I mean for me like one of the things that we are finally catching up with but I've been always very impressed with is Tik Tok and their recommenders ability to break small talent.

太多人做得太出色了,因为对我来说,有一件事我们终于开始追上了,但一直让我特别佩服的,就是 TikTok,以及他们的推荐系统捧红素人的能力。

Um, in the world of ranking and recommenders and rank, um, you can talk about exploitationbased ranking.

在排序、推荐这个领域里,你可以谈所谓的 exploitation 式排序(利用式排序)。

That sounds terrible, but it just means like using the data you have.

这个词听起来很吓人,但它其实就是指利用你已经有的数据。

And then you can talk about exploration based ranking, going and trying to figure out, you know, what someone might be interested in that they might even not know they're interested in yet.

然后你还可以谈 exploration 式排序(探索式排序),就是去尝试搞清楚一个人可能会感兴趣、甚至他们自己都还没意识到自己会感兴趣的东西。

And it is much easier to move engagement by showing people stuff that, you know, they'll probably like because lots of people like it.

而通过给人们展示那些他们大概率会喜欢、因为很多人都喜欢的内容,来提升 engagement,要容易得多。

it's much harder to go and figure out how to essentially test content so that we can see like hey maybe you sure you like Bieber but you might also like Afrounk and so we're just going to like show you some Afrounk and see what happens.

真正难的,是去琢磨怎么本质上对内容做测试,好让我们能看出来,比如说,好,你确实喜欢 Bieber,但你说不定也会喜欢 Afrobeat,所以我们就给你推点 Afrobeat,看看会发生什么。

If you do the latter, this exploration based ranking, you can I think it's really good for niche creators and small creators because you give them a chance to find an audience that either wasn't going to see them before or didn't even know that they were interested before.

如果你走的是后面这条路,也就是探索式排序,我觉得这对小众创作者和小创作者真的非常好,因为你给了他们一个机会,去找到那些原本看不到他们、或者原本都不知道自己会感兴趣的受众。

So, we've invested a lot over the last couple years in ranking, not just increasing engagement, but increasing originality, increasing the number of uh pieces of content that break out, uh increasing recency to stay culturally relevant.

所以过去这几年,我们在排序上投入了很多,不只是提升 engagement,还包括提升原创性、提升能够爆火出圈的内容数量、提升时效性以保持文化上的相关性。

And so a lot of that has been inspired by by Tik Tok and bite dance.

这里面很多灵感都来自 TikTok 和字节跳动。

I think we're catching up.

我觉得我们正在追上来。

Um there's actually a couple of those areas where we I think by best we can tell we're ahead of them.

其实有那么几个领域,据我们目前最好的判断,我们是领先于他们的。

There's a couple where we're still behind, but for we have line of sight to I think being the best in class at recommendations for the first time um during my tenure.

也有几个领域我们还落后,但整体上,我们已经看到了希望——在我任职期间,第一次有可能在推荐上做到业界最强。

Uh so that's I think and they get a lot of credit for inspiring a lot of their work.

所以我觉得,他们激发了他们自己(团队)的很多工作,这一点他们功不可没。

Nice job.

干得漂亮。

Well, we'll see.

嗯,再看吧。

We're not there yet.

我们还没到那个程度。

They call me disappointed dad.

他们管我叫"失望的老爸"。

My team is always like, "Can you ease up on the disappointed dad vibe?" So, I'm I'm trying to trying to be a little bit more um generous about giving people their flowers.

我的团队总是说:"你能不能收敛一下那种失望老爸的气场?"所以我在努力,努力更大方一点,多给人们送上他们应得的赞美。

Like you say that, but that's an interesting common thread across really successful leaders is just never being satisfied.

你嘴上这么说,但这其实是那些真正成功的领导者身上一条很有意思的共同特质——就是永远不满足。

Always feeling a blessing and a curse.

永远觉得这既是福气又是诅咒。

Here's all the problem.

这就是所有问题所在。

It is.

确实如此。

Yeah.

对。

on this creator piece.

在创作者这块。

I think that's also, you know, people uh complain about this global algorithm not showing them all their friends, but I feel like this is a benefit of what happens when you do this now that you can break new creators into wide audience if you have this kind of global algorithmic feed, which is really great for a lot of people.

我觉得这一点也是,你知道,人们会抱怨这套全球化算法没把他们所有的朋友都推给他们,但我觉得这恰恰是这么做带来的一个好处——现在,如果你有这样一套全球化的算法 feed,你就能把新创作者推向广大受众,这对很多人来说真的非常棒。

I mean, I'm out there talking about a lot of these contentious issues and I get beat up a lot in the comments, which is fine.

我经常出去公开谈论这些有争议的话题,在评论区里被喷得很惨,不过这没关系。

My main thing here is just to try to communicate that there's almost always trade-offs, right?

我在这儿主要想传达的,就是几乎凡事都有取舍,对吧?

There's that, you know, you can't just have all of the things, unfortunately.

很遗憾,你没法什么都要。

You know, you want to have um you you want to never see something you're not interested in, then you're also just going to see like the most basic general lowest common denominator stuff all the time.

你知道,你想要……你想永远不看到任何自己不感兴趣的东西,那你也就只会一直看到那些最基础、最大众、最没门槛的内容。

You know, you want to discover new and interesting things.

你知道,你想发现新奇有趣的东西。

you're occasionally going to see stuff that was just a miss, you know.

那你偶尔就会看到一些纯粹是推错了的内容,你懂的。

You know, but this isn't just true about ranking.

但这不只对排序成立。

These all all these major debates have trade-offs, right?

所有这些重大的争论都有取舍,对吧?

You know, uh privacy and safety, those two things are intention.

比如隐私和安全,这两件事本身就是矛盾的。

You know, do you do you want a company scanning your messages or not?

你知道,你到底想不想让一家公司扫描你的消息?

There's some really significant trade-offs on both sides of that debate.

在这场争论的两边,都存在着相当重大的取舍。

Um and so generally speaking, when I argue and engage in debate with people who feel really strongly about things, I'm not usually trying to convince them.

所以总的来说,当我和那些对某些事有强烈立场的人争论、交锋时,我通常并不是想说服他们。

They usually their mind is usually made up.

他们通常……他们的想法通常早就定了。

I'm just trying to enumerate all of the different puts and takes for the rest of the people watching the conversation.

我只是想为其他正在旁观这场对话的人,把各种利弊都一一列举出来。

Speaking of getting torn apart in the comments, like you're so in the middle and thick of all of these really hairy situations, changing the feed, you're like in the Cambridge Analytica lawsuit, all this just like you're in the center of so much controversy and is that some

说到被评论区撕碎，你一直深陷在这些特别棘手的处境正中央——改 feed、卷进 Cambridge Analytica 的官司，方方面面，你就站在这么多争议的风暴眼里，这是不是一种

Yep.

对。

Oh man.

唉，天哪。

Is that just like you I will lean into this.

这是不是一种你自己主动说“我要迎上去”的心态？

This is the thing I need to do.

“这是我该做的事。”

Or was it like Zuck being like Adam you got to be the front face of all the stuff and get in there?

还是说，是 Zuck 跟你讲“Adam，你得站到台前，去替这些事挡在最前面”？

Like where does that come from?

这种劲儿到底是从哪来的？

It started on newsfeed.

这要从 newsfeed 说起。

So I used to run newsfeed at Facebook and I my take was that the debate was going to happen with or without us.

我以前在 Facebook 负责 newsfeed，我当时的想法是，不管有没有我们，这场争论都会发生。

So we might as well participate.

那我们不如也参与进去。

And so I started being really active on Twitter specifically because that's where journalists really lived at the time.

于是我开始在 Twitter 上特别活跃，因为那时候记者们基本都泡在那儿。

And I thought it would be show some humility to show up on their turf, so to speak.

我觉得跑到他们的地盘上去，某种意义上算是放低姿态、表现出一点谦逊。

My Twitter ended up being like the most the darkest place in my life because I just followed all of our biggest critics.

结果我的 Twitter 成了我人生里最黑暗的地方，因为我把我们所有最凶的批评者全都关注了。

That's not a dig on Twitter.

这不是在贬低 Twitter。

That was just what I did.

只是我自己那么干了而已。

Um, and that's where it started and it kind of slowly built from there.

嗯，事情就是这么起头的，然后慢慢地一点点积累起来。

For better, for worse, we've become a really important part of daily life for a lot of people.

不管是好是坏，我们已经成了很多人日常生活中非常重要的一部分。

We touch a lot of people.

我们触达的人很多。

We have a lot of responsibility and there's a lot of change and there's with change means there's going to be anxiety and stress and scrutiny.

我们肩上的责任很大，变化也很多，而有变化就意味着会有焦虑、压力和审视。

We've made great decisions.

我们做过很棒的决策。

We've made mistakes.

我们也犯过错。

Um we've been criticized for things that I think um we've been criticized unfairly.

嗯，有些事我们被批评了，我觉得那些批评是不公平的。

We've been criticized fairly.

也有些批评是公道的。

And so we just need to accept that this debate is gonna happen broadly.

所以我们只能接受一点：这场争论总归会在大范围里发生。

So I just think it's better for us to talk about it um and just be clear about what we're doing, why we're doing it, what the trade-offs are.

既然如此，我觉得我们不如把它摊开来谈，把我们在做什么、为什么做、要付出哪些取舍讲清楚。

If people disagree, that's okay.

如果有人不认同，那也没关系。

We're not necessarily, you know, winning over friends when we talk about what we do.

我们谈论自己做的事时，未必是在赢得朋友。

But I think over the long run, people are fundamentally more afraid of things that they don't understand um and about things where people are more secretive and less accessible.

但我觉得长远来看，人们从根本上更害怕那些他们不理解的东西，更害怕那些遮遮掩掩、难以接触的东西。

And so I've been tried I've tried to show up in an accessible and authentic way.

所以我一直努力以一种开放、真实的方式站出来。

Um and I've made mistakes and I [snorts] have enjoyed it at times and hated it at other times.

嗯，我犯过错，有时候乐在其中[鼻子哼了一声]，有时候又恨得要命。

Um but that's kind of how it started.

嗯，但事情大致就是这么开始的。

There was also kind of a fun debate in Mark's sort of senior leadership team a long time ago where we were just talking about how we're a social media company where we had like a very sort of conventional approach to communication and like press releases and why don't we just use our platform.

很久以前在 Mark 的高层管理团队里还有过一场挺有意思的讨论，我们当时聊到，我们是一家社交媒体公司，可对外沟通却用着一套很传统的路子——发新闻稿之类的，那我们干嘛不直接用自己的平台呢。

So, um, I was not in that debate, but I stuck myself into that debate, trying to mediate it.

嗯，我本来不在那场讨论里，但我硬把自己塞了进去，想去当个调和的人。

And I think, um, but that was also a reason why I ended up getting sucked in, because Mark was like, "All right, well, let's see.

我觉得，嗯，但这也是我最后被卷进去的一个原因，因为 Mark 说：“行啊，那咱们看看。

Like, why don't you try and see how it goes?"

要不你去试试，看看效果如何？”

What's something that helps you deal with the the hate that flows at you every time you say something that people disagree with,

每次你说了些别人不认同的话、招来一堆仇恨涌向你的时候，有什么办法能帮你扛过去？

you try to put it in perspective, right?

你会试着把它放到一个更大的视角里去看，对吧？

You know, like, so it started with I did the redesign of Newsfeed in 2009.

你知道，这得从 2009 年我重新设计 Newsfeed 说起。

We launched it, March of 2009 for Facebook.

我们把它上线了，2009 年 3 月，为 Facebook 上线的。

I was a designer.

我当时是个设计师。

I was a front like an IC designer, front, you know, entry- level designer.

我是个一线的 IC 设计师，就是入门级的设计师。

And the first comment that came in was something pretty derogatory.

而涌进来的第一条评论就相当难听。

I think it was like it was like homophobic and anti-semitic, you know, it was just like literally we're all sitting there.

我记得那条又是恐同又是反犹，你知道的，就是我们所有人都干坐在那儿。

We launched this thing and we're just looking at the stream of comments and it's like the first one and it was specifically about they don't know me but it was like what exploive expletive um sensor sensor uh designed this [ __ ] and I was like oh it was me.

我们把这东西上线了，眼巴巴看着评论一条条刷出来，结果第一条就来了，而且专门冲着——他们并不认识我，但那句话大概是“哪个某某某某设计的这坨玩意儿”，我心里想，哦，那就是我啊。

Um and I was like devastated.

嗯，我当时整个人都崩了。

I was like 25-year-old kid and I don't know I thought about it and I came I came to this idea that if you spent 30 40 50 minutes a day at a at your desk and you organized your photos there and you wrote letters to your friends there and you read there and then I just came and I rearranged your desk and I didn't tell you I didn't warn you.

我那会儿是个 25 岁的小年轻，我也说不好，我琢磨了一阵，后来我想通了一个道理：假如你每天在书桌前坐上 30、40、50 分钟，在那儿整理你的照片，在那儿给朋友写信，在那儿阅读，然后我突然跑过来，把你的书桌重新摆了一遍，我没告诉你，也没提前打招呼。

I didn't even explain why.

我甚至都没解释为什么。

Like you would be pissed and that would be reasonable.

那你肯定会火大，而且这情绪是合情合理的。

Um, and that was what was happening just, you know, with millions of people.

嗯，而这正是当时正在发生的事，你知道，是发生在几百万人身上。

Um, so I try to put things in perspective.

嗯，所以我会努力把事情放到更大的视角里去看。

Um, and then I try to step away from it.

嗯，然后我会试着从里面抽身出来。

Um, get time with my kids, get time outside.

嗯，多陪陪我的孩子，多到户外待一待。

Uh, there there are months where it's really not hard at all and there are months where it's really really grinds on me.

嗯，有些月份其实一点都不难熬，也有些月份是真的把我磨得够呛。

Along those lines, there's a famous kind of reversal when you redesign the feed into this kind of video scrolly experience.

顺着这个话题，有一次很有名的翻车——你把 feed 重新设计成了那种视频信息流的滑动体验。

There's this whole

结果引发了整整一场

protest.

抗议。

the world protested.

全世界都在抗议。

Yeah, that was pretty rough.

是啊，那次是挺难熬的。

Uh, what was kind of like, okay, wow, we're actually not right and we should go back.

那，是什么让你意识到，好吧，哇，我们其实错了，我们应该改回去。

What was kind of what helped you decide, okay, let's change course.

是什么帮你下了决心，好，咱们掉头？

So, actually that one got that one three or four things got conflated.

其实那一次，那件事把三四样东西混为一谈了。

We had a redesign of feed that went to the video viewer that was a test to 4% of users on iOS.

我们对 feed 做了一次重新设计，改成了那种视频浏览器的样子，那只是一个在 iOS 上面向 4% 用户的测试。

It was a not it was not going to roll out.

它不是……它并不会全量推出。

It was just like an early test to get some sense and feedback on the idea.

它只是个早期测试，想对这个想法有点感觉、收点反馈。

We were also leaning into reels a lot.

我们当时也在大力押注 reels。

We were also leaning into recommendations, so posts from accounts you don't follow a lot.

我们也在大力押注推荐，也就是大量来自你没关注的账号的帖子。

And there were also creators who were upset about the fact that their reach was going down and they were blaming ranking changes on that.

同时还有一些创作者对自己触达量下滑很不满，他们把这归咎于排序算法的改动。

Those four things got all conflated.

这四件事全被混为一谈了。

We had some pretty bigname creators publicly like slap us.

有几个相当有名气的创作者公开地给了我们一巴掌。

Then the press covered that creator sort of backlash which then got more creators doing it.

接着媒体报道了创作者的这种反弹，这又带动更多创作者跟着一起来。

So we ended up with this little bit of like a multiplier effect or echo between the creator community and the press back and forth, but we were never going to launch that.

于是我们就陷进了创作者群体和媒体之间来回拉扯、有点像乘数效应或者回声室的局面里，可我们本来就压根没打算上线那东西。

That was an early test.

那只是个早期测试。

We were we knew it was needed work.

我们……我们清楚它还需要打磨。

Um we actually have continued to grow video and invest in creative tools and invest in ranking and invest in recommendations and that's driven in most of our growth in the years since.

嗯，其实在那之后的这些年里，我们一直在把视频做大，一直在投入创作工具、投入排序、投入推荐，这些也是我们这些年绝大部分增长的驱动力。

um

嗯

I think we were pushed well I don't know doesn't feel like but like it I think we were I think my real takeaway wasn't that we should have not tested that design necessarily I think we could have been we could have done a bunch of things better to explain and maybe move a little fast move a little slower I think we were just pushing things a little bit too fast and when you are responsible for a platform like Instagram you need to be reasonable and realistic about how much you can evolve it Now, I would much rather have backlashes like that every couple years or continue to evolve and continue to stay relevant than the alternative, which would have been like we didn't have video, we didn't have DMs, we didn't have stories, we didn't have ranking, and we wouldn't be on having this podcast right now.

我觉得我们是被逼着……唉我也说不好，感觉不太像，但是……我觉得我们……我真正的收获并不是说那个设计当初就不该拿去测试，我觉得我们本可以……我们本可以在很多地方做得更好，去把它解释清楚，也许把节奏放……把节奏放慢一点，我觉得我们当时只是把事情推进得稍微太快了，而当你要为 Instagram 这样一个平台负责时，你必须对“你到底能把它演进到什么程度”保持理性和现实的判断。如今，我宁愿每隔几年就来一次那样的反弹、继续演进、继续保持自己的相关性，也不要另一种结局——那种结局就是我们没有视频、没有 DMs、没有 stories、没有排序，那我们现在也根本坐不到这儿录这期播客了。

Um um but the cost of leaning in is that you're going to occasionally like make a mistake and you're going to definitely um pay for it.

嗯……但迎难而上的代价就是，你偶尔会犯错，而且你肯定会为此付出代价。

It's interesting how running experiments now is like very risky for companies at your scale.

挺有意思的是，如今对你们这种体量的公司来说，跑实验变成了一件风险很高的事。

One person spots it and they're like, "Oh shit."

一个人瞅见了，就会来一句：“哦，糟了。”

You kind of need to have a press.

你多少得有一套对媒体的……

You don't need to be proactive about communicating it, but you need to have a calm strategy.

你不一定非要主动去传播它，但你得有一套沉着应对的策略。

Like we can't for any for any design change or any test that could be controversial.

就是说，对任何可能引发争议的设计改动或测试，我们都没法……

We we talk about it beforehand and be like, "Okay, not if it leaks, when it leaks, what are we saying?" You know, are we, you know, should we talk about proactively, should we talk reactively?

我们会事先就聊好，说：“好，问题不是它会不会泄露，而是它一旦泄露，我们要怎么说？”你知道的，我们该主动去谈，还是被动去谈？

Either way, what's the message?

不管哪种方式，我们要传达的信息是什么？

Because you can't you can't you can't launch something to three billion people and not test it first, but you can't test something at our scale and not expect people to cover it and not and be so you have to be ready to talk about it before you even know you want to launch it.

因为你没法……你没法……你没法把一个东西直接推给三十亿人却不先做测试，可你又没法在我们这种体量上测试一样东西还指望没人报道，所以你得做好准备——在你自己都还不确定要不要上线之前，就得准备好去谈它。

Um so it's um it makes the development cycle more complicated than it used to be.

嗯，所以这让整个开发周期变得比过去复杂多了。

Yeah.

是啊。

the uh head of growth at Enthropic launched an experiment with pricing and it just went crazy on Twitter.

Anthropic 的增长负责人上线了一个定价方面的实验,结果在 Twitter 上直接炸了。

He's like hold that 1% of people were just trend stuff like noic

他大概是那种觉得只有 1% 的人会去追这些趋势话题、心想'挺酷的'的心态。

pricing particularly that one is a real you got to be real careful with that one.

定价这件事,尤其是那一个,是真的得格外小心。

I've I've learned we've all learned these lessons.

我早就学到了这个教训,我们所有人都学到了这些教训。

We should all share notes more.

我们真该多互相交流一下经验。

That's what I think.

我是这么想的。

Here's one not to how to avoid the internet hating you for the day.

这算是一条经验:怎么才能不让整个互联网当天都恨你。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

I'm happy to talk to that more than

我很乐意就这个多聊几句——

I think he's all right.

我觉得他没事。

He's all right.

他没事的。

Okay.

好。

Okay, I'm going to take us to two recurring corners on the podcast.

好,我要带我们进入 podcast 上两个固定环节。

Fail corner and hot seat corner.

失败角,还有烤问角。

Fail corner.

先说失败角。

What's uh what's something that you worked on that was just a huge failure that helped you become better?

有没有哪个你做过的项目,是一场巨大的失败,但也帮你成长为了更好的自己?

Oh, a bunch.

哦,一大堆。

Um

嗯——

so any

那随便挑——

So I'll give you two maybe.

那我大概给你讲两个吧。

So before Instagram, my first project as a PM was on a project called Facebook Home, which was a sort of

在来 Instagram 之前,我作为 PM 的第一个项目叫 Facebook Home,那是一种——

fork of Android um at the operating system level and and a piece of hardware with HTC.

在操作系统层面对 Android 做的一个分支,再加上和 HTC 合作的一款硬件。

It was a spectacular failure.

它是一场惨烈的失败。

I learned way more in that year, year and a half, and I did it any year.

在那一年到一年半里,我学到的东西比我职业生涯中任何一年都多得多。

I think probably in my career because I was just a design manager before that.

我觉得大概是整个职业生涯里最多的一次,因为在那之前我只是个设计经理。

I declared myself a PM because the PM on the project quit and I just threw myself head first in understanding carriers and OEMs and uh certification as well as Android and operating systems and just lend a ton.

我自封为 PM,是因为项目里原来的 PM 辞职了,于是我一头扎了进去,去搞懂运营商、OEM 厂商、认证这些东西,还有 Android 和操作系统,收获特别多。

Um so and I'm happy I brought that project to an end because it had been going on for a long time and sometimes you the best thing you can do is execute an idea that doesn't have market fit well just to decide whether or not the idea was a good idea in the first place.

嗯,而且我很庆幸自己给那个项目画上了句号,因为它已经拖了很久了;有时候你能做的最好的事,就是把一个并不契合市场的想法认真执行到底,好搞清楚这个想法当初到底是不是个好想法。

Another big mistake I made um during my Instagram tenure was the first version of reels was built on top of stories.

我在 Instagram 任期内犯的另一个大错,是第一版 Reels 是搭建在 Stories 之上的。

Stories had a ton of momentum.

当时 Stories 势头非常猛。

This was I think 2019 and we were trying to build reels into stories because we were trying to build in the thing that was growing the fastest.

这我记得是 2019 年,我们试图把 Reels 做进 Stories 里,因为我们想搭在增长最快的那个东西上。

But it was not a strong foundation.

但那并不是一个牢固的地基。

Most, you know, the readthrough rate on stories is relatively low.

你知道,Stories 的看完率相对是比较低的。

There's way more stories than most people have time to consume.

Stories 的数量远远多过大多数人有时间去消费的量。

So most of the reels were never seen and then they disappeared.

所以大部分 Reels 根本没被人看到,然后就消失了。

Um, and if we had the version of reels that we launched in like mid maybe I think it's like the summer of 2020 in the summer of 2019.

嗯,假如我们当时就有后来大概在 2020 年年中——我想是 2020 年夏天——上线的那一版 Reels,而不是拖到 2019 年夏天……

I think I don't think Tik Tok isn't I think Tik Tok is still big and important, but I don't think it's as big as it is now because when they really took off was when the pandemic hit and a bunch of people had a lot of time at home and were looking for a little bit of joy and were totally fine with their phone having sound on.

我倒不是说 TikTok 就不会……我觉得 TikTok 依然会很大、很重要,但我不认为它会像现在这么大,因为它真正起飞是在疫情来袭的时候,一大堆人被困在家里、有大把时间,想找点小小的快乐,而且完全不介意手机开着声音外放。

And so if you look at the numbers, the 2020 is when they exploded and we were out of position.

所以你去看数据,2020 年就是它们爆发的那一年,而那时我们的站位却没跟上。

And um on one hand, you know, I'm a designer.

嗯,一方面,你知道,我是个设计师。

I'm trying to not add new things to the product.

我一直在努力不给产品加新东西。

I'm trying to extend existing primitives and that was the idea.

我想的是去扩展已有的那些基础元素,当时的想法就是这个。

On the other hand, I was wrong and and it's a pretty big fork in the road if you just look at the overall business over the last eight years.

另一方面,我错了;而且如果你纵观过去八年整体的业务,这其实是一个相当大的岔路口。

We created a lot of economic opportunity in the world allowing Tik Tok to to grow.

我们在这个世界上创造了大量的经济机会,却也让 TikTok 得以成长起来。

That's good.

那挺好的。

I'm I'm glad they exist.

我很高兴它们存在。

Okay, final question.

好，最后一个问题。

Um I'm curious just about your screen time policy with your kids.

我很好奇你对自己孩子的 screen time 是怎么管的。

I know you have three kids.

我知道你有三个孩子。

Uh there's a lot of concern these days about Instagram not being great for people, not for kids.

如今大家有很多顾虑，觉得 Instagram 对人们不太好，对孩子更不好。

A lot of tech executives don't let their kids use devices while they're building the product.

很多科技公司高管在打造产品的同时，却不让自己的孩子用这些设备。

As head of Instagram, how do you think about screen time with your kids?

作为 Instagram 的负责人，你怎么看待孩子的 screen time？

The key thing for me is boundaries.

对我来说，关键在于边界。

Um it's also about education and being and having conversations with them.

同时也在于教育，在于陪着他们、跟他们对话。

But my kids are too young to use social media.

不过我的孩子还太小，还不能用社交媒体。

They're 10, eight, and six.

他们分别是 10 岁、8 岁和 6 岁。

Um but they each have an iPad.

但他们每人有一台 iPad。

they get um they have to earn their time.

他们得靠自己去挣使用时间。

Um so they have different ways they earn that time.

他们有不同的方式来挣这些时间。

It's usually about like sitting down to do your homework three times for half an hour each gets you a total of 90 minutes on the weekend and then they can use that time on the weekend.

通常是这样：坐下来认真做作业，三次、每次半小时，加起来周末就能有 90 分钟，然后他们可以在周末用掉这些时间。

Um but you kind of have to set that boundary where it's like you can't just like you know it can't just be they ask for it and you give it to them.

但你得设立这样的边界——不能就这么，你懂的，不能一开口要，你就给。

I think that matters a lot and then I'm pretty opinionated about what they do on it.

我觉得这一点很重要，而且我对他们在设备上做什么也挺有主见的。

Like I approve what apps that they have.

比如他们装什么 app 得我来批准。

I think parents should be approving what apps kids specifically are um downloading onto their devices.

我认为家长应该去审批孩子具体往设备上下载哪些 app。

We've been advocating for this at a policy level for a long time at Meta.

在 Meta，我们很久以来一直在政策层面为此呼吁。

I think those things help a lot.

我觉得这些事帮助很大。

Um there are some exceptions.

当然也有一些例外。

Um one is planes.

一个是坐飞机。

It's just like about surviving.

那纯粹就是为了熬过去。

I don't know if you've ever for those of you are parents.

我不知道你有没有过——对那些为人父母的听众来说。

I'm going to be Yeah.

我会的，是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

It's like you just like that's just like all right you know we're fly you know it's a 10-hour flight or eight hour flight.

就是那种感觉——好吧，你懂的，我们在飞，这是一趟 10 小时或 8 小时的航班。

It's like, yeah, just just you just need to get through it.

就是那种，对，你就是得熬过这段时间。

Um, the other one that I'm starting to experiment with my 10-year-old with is so schools are interesting because I think I'm pretty supportive of a no phone in classrooms.

另一个我正开始跟我 10 岁的孩子一起尝试的是——学校这块挺有意思的，因为我其实挺支持课堂上不许带手机的。

Um, that's happening more and more.

这种做法越来越普遍了。

I think that's is probably good for education.

我觉得这对教育来说大概是好事。

And I do also know in the world of AI that there's concern about kids using AI and not learning critical thinking skills.

而且我也知道，在 AI 的世界里，大家担心孩子用 AI 就不去学批判性思维了。

And I think that's a valid concern.

我觉得这个担忧是有道理的。

But I also am worried about kids not learning how to leverage AI and then being sort of at a disadvantage.

但我同样担心，孩子如果不学会怎么借力 AI，反而会处于劣势。

So that's a balance.

所以这是个平衡。

So I think you need both.

所以我觉得两者都得要。

So with with my eldest, we started um vibe coding recently together.

所以跟我的大儿子，我们最近开始一起 vibe coding。

Um he's just loves video games.

他就是特别喜欢电子游戏。

So I was like, "All right, let's make a video game." And so he's made this 19 level platformer game that kind of looks like an eight-bit version of Super Mario from when I was a kid.

所以我就说：“好啊，那我们来做个电子游戏。”于是他做出了一个 19 关的平台跳跃游戏，有点像我小时候玩的那种 8-bit 版超级马里奥。

But like each level has its own theme, its own types of monsters.

但每一关都有自己的主题、自己类型的怪物。

There's a store where you can buy different skins or weapons, and there's like uh like all it's unbelievable what a 10-year-old who still types with three fingers can do um with just, you know, a couple hours of sitting together.

还有一家商店，你可以买不同的皮肤或武器，还有——这一切简直难以置信，一个还在用三根手指打字的 10 岁孩子，居然能做出这些，你懂的，就靠我们俩坐在一起花了几个小时。

But that is more of like a I want you to learn how to um make things.

但这更像是一种——我希望你学会怎么去创造东西。

I I want you to be thinking, not just playing games and I'm gonna sit with you and do we're going to do this together.

我希望你去思考，而不只是玩游戏，而且我会陪着你，我们一起来做这件事。

Um so to me, these are the things that matter.

所以对我来说，这些才是重要的事。

Boundaries um scoping it down to the activities you think are healthy for your kid.

边界，以及把范围收窄到那些你认为对孩子健康的活动上。

Every kid is different.

每个孩子都不一样。

U but I do think you want your kids to be digitally literate, um AI literate, because I think if they're not, they're going to be at a disadvantage.

但我确实认为，你希望自己的孩子具备数字素养、AI 素养，因为我觉得如果他们不具备，就会处于劣势。

But it's you also don't want it to be a free-for-all.

但你也不希望它变成毫无节制、随便乱来。

This is selfishly useful for me as a as a I have a three-year-old and I'm trying to figure all this stuff out.

这对我来说有点私心地有用，因为我有个 3 岁的孩子，我正想把这些事都搞明白。

So, this is useful.

所以这很有用。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是啊。

No,

不，

we need to figure out a strategy.

我们得想出一套策略。

It's amaz It's a thing.

这太神奇了，这确实是个事儿。

And you're you're you're not that far off.

而你——你离那一步真的不远了。

You're really just not that far off.

你真的离那一步不远了。

It's going to happen in a couple years.

过几年就会发生的。

Five coding next year.

明年就 5 岁开始 coding。

Let's do it.

咱们来干吧。

I couldn't believe I tried to do it six months ago and it just totally didn't work.

我简直不敢相信，我半年前试过一次，结果完全行不通。

And then

然后

now with newer models, it's been amazing.

现在换上更新的模型，效果好得惊人。

What's their platform of choice?

他们首选的平台是什么？

Are they a clock coding team?

他们是 Claude Code 那一派吗？

uh person.

呃，我是说他本人。

Yeah, my 10-year-old is using is using cloud code right now.

是啊，我 10 岁的孩子现在用的就是 Claude Code。

Um

嗯

um but um we will see.

嗯，不过嗯，走着瞧吧。

We'll see how that goes.

看看会怎么发展。

Adam, uh I'm going to let you go.

Adam，呃，我就不多留你了。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢你来做客。

This you're just like such a gem of a person.

你真的是个特别难得的人。

It's just so obvious how clear like how authentic you are and just like how deeply you think about everything.

太明显了，你有多清醒、多真诚，又对每件事想得有多深。

Uh so I really appreciate you being here.

呃，所以真的很感激你能来。

I appreciate you bringing me on.

感谢你请我来。

Um been a fan for a long time.

嗯，我关注你很久了。

It's nice to finally get to have a conversation.

很高兴终于能坐下来聊一聊。

I appreciate that.

我很感激。

I really appreciate that.

我真的很感激。

Uh let me just ask you this final question to ask everyone.

呃，让我问你这个我会问每个人的最后一个问题。

What's a way that listeners can be useful to you?

听众可以用什么方式帮到你？

I just think you don't even have to tell this to other people, but just remember that this world and technology is complicated and there are almost always tradeoffs.

我只是觉得，你甚至都不用把这话讲给别人听，但请记住：这个世界和科技都很复杂，几乎总是存在取舍。

Um and you can totally disagree with the decisions I or we make.

嗯，你完全可以不认同我或我们做出的决定。

Um, but just remember that we are people here trying to make these decisions, trying to do the best we can.

嗯，但请记住，我们也是人，在这里努力做这些决定，尽力把事情做到最好。

And I I actually do invite the criticism and the critique and the feedback, but um, but know that none of these contentious debates are nearly as simple as most people pretend to make them out to be.

而且我其实是欢迎批评、质疑和反馈的，不过，嗯，但要知道，这些充满争议的辩论，没有一个像大多数人假装的那样简单。

Wise words, Adam, thank you so much for being here.

说得真好，Adam，非常感谢你来做客。

Pleasure.

荣幸之至。

Thank you, Lenny.

谢谢你，Lenny。

Bye, everyone.

各位，再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢大家的收听。

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如果你觉得这期有价值，可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或你喜欢的播客 app 上订阅本节目。

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你可以在 lennispodcast.com 找到所有往期节目，或了解更多关于本节目的信息。

See you in the next episode.

下期节目见。