Building the Most AI-Pilled Engineering Team in the World

"Fiona, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast."

Fiona,太感谢你来了,欢迎做客这档播客。

"Thanks so much for having me, Lenny."

非常感谢你邀请我,Lenny。

"So, I was at the Code with Claude event, I don't know, a month ago at this point, and I went to your talk, and I was just like, holy, I got to get Fiona on this podcast."

大概一个月前吧,我去参加了 Code with Claude 那场活动,听了你的演讲,当时就想:天哪,我一定得请 Fiona 来上这档播客。

"She's thinking so far ahead of where everybody else is going and where people are at with AI."

她的思考远远超前于其他所有人,也超前于大家当下对 AI 的认知。

"So, you've been an engineer for 25 years."

所以,你已经做了 25 年工程师。

"I was browsing your LinkedIn. You started at IBM of all places."

我翻了翻你的 LinkedIn,你竟然是从 IBM 起步的。

"Such a different place to be these days."

放到今天,那可真是个很不一样的地方。

"And it's just insane how much the job of an engineer has changed over the past just like 2 years."

而且工程师这份工作在过去短短两年里的变化,简直令人难以置信。

"It's like a completely different job."

它几乎变成了一份完全不同的工作。

"Like, people may forget 100% of code was written by humans not long ago."

大家可能忘了,不久前 100% 的代码都还是人写的。

"And now it's getting to 100% of code written by AI."

而现在正在变成 100% 的代码由 AI 来写。

"As Boris famously said, coding is solved."

正如 Boris 那句名言所说,coding is solved(写代码这件事已经被解决了)。

"Along these lines, there's just this tweet that you guys put out yesterday, where you showed Anthropic engineers on average ship, compared to 2021 to 2025."

顺着这个话题,你们昨天刚发了一条推文,展示了 Anthropic 工程师人均的交付量,对比了 2021 年到 2025 年。

"We'll show this chart on the screen. It's just like stable, stable, stable, stable, boom, shooting off into the moon."

我们会把这张图放到屏幕上。它就是平、平、平、平,然后砰一下,直冲云霄。

"So, it's just insane how much this role has changed."

所以说,这个岗位的变化之大,真的很疯狂。

"I'm curious about your path as an engineer living through this, having been an engineer for a long time."

我很好奇,作为一个亲历这一切、又干了这么多年的工程师,你这一路是怎么走过来的。

"What have been the big moments along the way where it shifted your way of thinking and operating that have led you to what you do now and how you operate now?"

一路上有哪些重大的节点,改变了你思考和做事的方式,最终把你带到了今天所做的事和如今的工作方式?

"Oh, I love this kind of look back in time."

哦,我特别喜欢这种回望过去的感觉。

"Yeah, like IBM, working on DB2, the operating system services team."

是啊,比如在 IBM,做 DB2,在操作系统服务团队。

"Like back then I was thinking, oh, what's a hard area of the stack?"

那时候我在想:技术栈里哪一块最难啃?

"And I really thought the lower level you go, closer to the OS, then it's like more hardcore and you learn more."

我当时真的觉得,越往底层走、越贴近操作系统,就越硬核,学到的东西也越多。

"So I was really fortunate to have gotten into the IBM internship."

所以能拿到 IBM 的实习机会,我真的很幸运。

"But the funny thing was, I think there's even a big shift from IBM to Microsoft."

但有意思的是,我觉得从 IBM 到 Microsoft 也有一次很大的转变。

"So at IBM it was, I think, Vim. Like I didn't have an IDE that we used."

在 IBM 用的应该是 Vim,我们当时并没有用 IDE。

"I think there might have been an Eclipse license, but for some reasons most of us didn't use it."

可能是有一份 Eclipse 的许可证,但不知为何我们大多数人都没用。

"So I remember it was mainly like Vim and, you know, kind of terminal debugging."

所以我记得,主要就是 Vim 加上那种在终端里调试的方式。

"And then when I joined Microsoft, I mean, this is how naive I was: I didn't even know about IDEs and such."

后来我加入 Microsoft,我是说,我当时天真到连 IDE 这类东西都不知道。

"And back then you didn't really get to pick teams. Like this was early 2000s."

而且那会儿你根本没法挑团队,毕竟那是 2000 年代初。

"Actually first off I should say I was so grateful that I landed the internship and the role."

其实首先我得说,我特别感激自己能拿到那份实习和那个职位。

"Cuz to take us all the way back in time, the dot com bubble burst in 2000."

因为把时间拉回到那时,2000 年互联网泡沫破裂了。

"And so for my graduating class, like a lot of the companies weren't hiring or were having freezes."

所以对我那届毕业生来说,很多公司要么不招人,要么在冻结招聘。

"So I'm so fortunate when Microsoft extended me an offer."

所以当 Microsoft 给我发了 offer 时,我觉得自己太幸运了。

"And so they're like, you're going to work on Visual Studio."

他们说:你将去做 Visual Studio。

"I did not even know what Visual Studio was, cuz I came from like a Unix school."

我当时压根不知道 Visual Studio 是什么,因为我是从一所 Unix 流派的学校出来的。

"So I remember asking, oh, cuz I was thinking, well, the name Visual Studio, I'm like, oh, is this like a better paint program?"

所以我记得我还问了一句,因为我当时琢磨着 Visual Studio 这个名字,心想:这难道是个更高级的画图软件?

"And I could tell the look of my manager's face, like, what is going on?"

我能从我经理的表情里看出来,那意思是:这都什么跟什么啊?

"But then it ended up becoming like the love of my life for the first 11 years of my career."

但后来,它成了我职业生涯头 11 年里的挚爱。

"But that was the first time I used an IDE."

不过那也是我第一次用 IDE。

"So joining the Visual Studio team, seeing, oh wow, here's an IDE with debuggers and you can set breakpoints and do multi-threaded debugging."

所以加入 Visual Studio 团队后,我看到:哇,这是个带调试器的 IDE,可以打断点,还能做多线程调试。

"Like that was also always mind-blowing for me to think about the stepwise change."

想到这种阶跃式的变化,对我来说一直都很震撼。

"So yeah, that was kind of the story going from IBM to Visual Studio."

所以,这大概就是我从 IBM 到 Visual Studio 的故事。

"And then what I really loved about Visual Studio is I was on the Visual Studio editor team."

而我真正喜欢 Visual Studio 的一点是,我在 Visual Studio 的编辑器团队。

"So I used a VS editor to build the VS editor, and that's where my whole love of dogfooding comes from."

所以我是用 VS 编辑器来开发 VS 编辑器,我对 dogfooding 的全部热爱就来源于此。

"Like I remembered I wanted to first and foremost create a delightful experience not only for myself, but for my teammates."

我记得我最最想做的,就是不仅为自己、也为我的队友打造一种愉悦的使用体验。

"Cuz also if we go back in that time, if you remember, I mean, when did Twitter come out? Like was it 2006 or something?"

因为回到那个年代,你还记得吗,我是说,Twitter 是什么时候出来的?是 2006 年左右吧?

"It's been around my whole life."

它好像我这辈子一直都在。

"But back then, like before social media, it was also harder for most engineers to hear fast customer feedback."

但在那个年代,也就是社交媒体出现之前,大多数工程师其实很难快速听到客户的反馈。

"Like for sure there would be user research sessions, or we would have customers visit us."

当然,那时也会有用户调研,或者客户来访。

"But you didn't get the rapid feedback that you do nowadays."

但你拿不到像今天这样迅速的反馈。

"But back then I was so lucky because I was on VS."

不过那时候我特别幸运,因为我在做 VS。

"We ourselves gave each other so much rapid feedback, cuz we were all heavy VS users on the team."

我们彼此之间能给出大量快速反馈,因为团队里每个人都是 VS 的重度用户。

"People think about these milestones along the way of an engineer's journey, and we forget there's also been like a lot of transformation over the years."

人们会想到工程师旅程中的那些里程碑,却忘了这些年其实也发生过很多次变革。

"Not quite what we're living through, but just like IDEs, Visual Studio."

虽说不及我们如今正在经历的这一波,但比如 IDE、比如 Visual Studio。

"So I love that you're reminding us of these moments in the history of software engineering that have changed the work in a big way."

所以我很喜欢你提醒我们,软件工程史上的这些时刻,曾在很大程度上改变了这份工作。

"Yeah, when I worked on Visual Studio back then, we also shipped software on CDs."

是啊,我当年做 Visual Studio 的时候,软件还是靠光盘发行的。

"And that's why there were really hard deadlines, cuz you had to make sure the software is ready for us to give to manufacturing."

这也正是为什么会有非常硬的截止日期,因为你得确保软件已经做好,可以交给生产部门。

"To then put on the CDs for us to then put on the shelves."

然后压进光盘,再摆上货架。

"And then that was another shift, when we actually started to be able to ship software online."

而后又是一次转变——我们真正开始能够在线发布软件。

"And I think that's the interesting thing, and I kind of mentioned this in my talk."

我觉得这一点很有意思,我在演讲里也大致提过。

"It's before, when engineering time was like a really precious resource."

就是说,从前工程师的时间是一种极其宝贵的资源。

"But you also have these really hard deadlines, for example, like printing software on CDs."

同时你还面对着非常硬的截止日期,比如要把软件刻进光盘里。

"And so back then you would do a lot more planning, cuz you just wanted to make sure given the time you have, you make the best of it."

所以那时候你会做多得多的规划,因为你只想在有限的时间里把它用到极致。

"And that's the shift that we're seeing with Cowork: coding is no longer the bottleneck."

而这正是我们在 Cowork 上看到的那种转变:写代码不再是瓶颈了。

"And so now, you showed the tweet and that graphic. But now it's all about, like, where has that shift happened?"

所以现在——你刚展示了那条推文和那张图——关键就变成了:这种转变到底发生在了哪里?

"Like now not only engineers, but we also have designers, PMs, everybody on the Cowork team checks in code."

现在不只是工程师,我们的设计师、PM,Cowork 团队里的每个人都在提交代码。

"So like, not only more people checking in code, but kind of different disciplines, but also the throughput is so high."

所以不光是更多人在提交代码、而且来自不同的专业领域,与此同时吞吐量还非常高。

"How do we think about verification? Like that's kind of this other shift that I'm seeing."

那我们该如何看待"验证"这件事?这就是我正在观察到的另一种转变。

Maybe just kind of set this theme that I want to have for this conversation.

我想先给这场对话定一个大主题。

A lot of people are just wondering what is software engineering, managing software engineers, managing software and product teams look like in the future, and you are living through that right now.

很多人都在好奇:未来的软件工程、管理软件工程师、管理软件和产品团队会是什么样子,而你此刻正身处其中。

So, you mentioned this point about a more focus on verification, making sure the quality of the code being 8× is actually high and something that you know will work.

你刚提到一点,就是更看重验证——确保那些被放大到 8× 的代码质量真的过硬,确保它真的能跑起来。

So, just like let me ask this broad question and let's kind of see where this conversation goes.

那我就先抛一个大问题,看看这场对话能聊到哪。

What does an AI-pilled software team look like in 2026?

在 2026 年,一个被 AI 彻底改造过的软件团队是什么样子?

Because the roles are blowing, it's shifting more to this builder, like everybody starts being a builder, I would say.

因为职责边界正在被打破,角色越来越往「builder」靠拢——我想说,每个人都开始变成一个 builder。

The other shift that I've recently done is I actually have a Claude Code remote session that I enlist in all of our repos.

我最近做的另一个转变是,我专门跑着一个 Claude Code 远程 session,把它接入了我们所有的 repo。

And so, this way I have full visibility into the work that everybody's doing.

这样一来,大家手头在做的每一件事我都能尽收眼底。

And this instance it also has access to all our Slack channels and I'll have access to like how are the metrics of everything we track.

这个实例还能访问我们所有的 Slack 频道,我也能看到我们追踪的各项指标表现如何。

And so, every month I have been like, "Hey, you know what's fun? Like let's take a look back."

所以每个月我都会说:「嘿,你知道做什么挺有意思吗?咱们一起回顾一下吧。」

Like and so, we'll actually do it together.

于是我们真的会一起来做这件事。

I'll share my screen and we do a Claude Code session.

我把屏幕共享出来,我们一起开一个 Claude Code session。

And it's just about, "Hey, what were the focus areas? Like what were some of the products that got shipped? How did they do? Oh, what were the feedback channels?"

聊的就是:「嘿,这段时间的重点方向是什么?有哪些产品上线了?它们表现如何?哦,反馈渠道又是哪些?」

And so, even though before I would have just used these sessions to like generate PRs and bug fixes, I actually have these sessions to enable me to have conversations with folks that I support.

所以,虽然以前我只会用这些 session 来生成 PR、修 bug,但现在我用它们来支撑我和团队同事之间的对话。

Say more about that.

这点能再展开讲讲吗?

So, this is like a management technique, let's say, to help people not just ship, but actually ship better, understand if they're shipping things that have impact.

所以这算是一种管理手法吧——帮大家不只是把东西发出去,而是发得更好,让他们搞清楚自己交付的东西到底有没有产生影响。

Is that kind of the idea here?

大概是这个意思吗?

Just like use Claude to keep on top of all the things people are shipping and then make that a conversation with them.

就是用 Claude 来掌握大家交付的所有东西,然后把这些变成跟他们之间的一场对话。

Exactly.

没错。

So, yeah, outside of just the action of shipping is how did it do in market? Or hey, did we cause some bugs?

是的,除了「发布」这个动作本身,还要看它在市场上表现如何?或者说,我们有没有惹出什么 bug?

And it's okay to, like I have this saying, "Make new mistakes."

而且犯错没关系,我有句口头禅:「要犯就犯新错误。」

Like it's okay to make mistakes, just make new ones so that we're always learning, cuz if you aim to make zero mistakes, that probably means you're not moving fast enough or being a little bit too cautious.

犯错是可以的,只要是新错误就行,这样我们才能一直在学习;因为如果你的目标是零失误,那多半说明你跑得不够快,或者太过谨慎了。

And so, by having Claude, then it can also look at, for example, given some of the incidents that we have, let's look across all of this. Can we generate a theme?

所以,有了 Claude,它还能帮我看,比如说,针对我们出过的一些事故,把这些全都拉通来看一遍——能不能从中归纳出一个共性主题?

Like what's a good area of investment for us, especially when we think about quality. Like are we seeing any hot spots of where there could be a gap?

比如,对我们来说哪个方向值得投入,尤其是从质量的角度看——我们有没有发现哪些地方可能存在短板、形成了热点?

I think that used to be just a much more manual process, I would say.

我想说,这在以前是个手工活儿得多的过程。

Like if I look back a year ago, I don't think I would have been able to have some of these insights with Claude.

回头看一年前,我觉得当时我根本没办法借助 Claude 得出这些洞察。

Yeah, well, partly is cuz there's that and also people weren't shipping as much, so you could just make a little bullet list.

对,这一方面是因为有这个原因,另一方面也是因为以前大家交付得没那么多,所以你列个小清单就够了。

Here's the things I shipped last quarter. This feature, that feature, this feature, that feature.

「这是我上个季度发布的东西:这个功能、那个功能、这个功能、那个功能。」

So I think what I'm hearing here is this is like one of the only ways to stay on top of all the things that the team is shipping.

所以我理解,你说的是:这几乎是唯一能跟上团队所有交付的方式之一。

So this is a really cool thread of just like how you found ways to stay on top of this 8× increase in code.

所以这是个特别有意思的话题——你是怎么找到办法、跟上这 8× 暴增的代码量的。

What else has worked in helping you and your team stay on top of and maintain quality of all the stuff that y'all are shipping, cuz that's obviously a challenge, a bigger challenge.

还有什么办法帮到了你和你的团队,让你们既跟得上、又能守住所有交付物的质量?因为这显然是个挑战,而且是个更大的挑战。

Yeah, and so definitely the feedback channels are really important to us, but then we also get a lot of feedback.

是的,反馈渠道对我们来说绝对非常重要,但我们收到的反馈也确实很多。

And like for example, even I myself, usually what my morning ritual would be, you know, I get my morning cup of coffee and then I look at the feedback channels.

举个例子,就连我自己,过去早晨的固定仪式通常是:先来一杯早咖啡,然后去看反馈渠道。

And then I try to pick up what are, you know, if I have some maker time, what's something that maybe I would be able to help out or where I could see some gaps.

然后我会试着挑出来——如果我有一段可以亲自动手的时间,有什么是我也许能帮上忙的,或者哪里能让我看出一些缺口。

Like that just used to be something I would do every morning.

这本来是我每天早上都会做的事。

And yeah, I think maybe a month or two ago we launched routines. And that's also completely changed.

然后,我想大概一两个月前我们上线了 routines,这也彻底改变了局面。

Like now I just have a routine that automates all this for me.

现在我只要有一个 routine,就能把这一切都自动化掉。

And then there's also, it's almost like before I would be able to kind of generate some prompts, but now with routines, it's almost like I'm having an agent help me generate the prompts and the PR.

而且还有一点,这就好比以前我大概能自己写出一些 prompt,但现在有了 routines,几乎就像是有一个 agent 在帮我生成 prompt 和 PR。

So for example, one is, "Hey, keep a look on this feedback channel, what are some of the themes?"

比如说,有一个是:「嘿,盯着这个反馈渠道,看看有哪些共性主题?」

And then like when I wake up, then I have a really good summary of that.

这样等我一觉醒来,就已经有一份相当不错的总结摆在那儿了。

And then even some PRs that I'll be able to take a look and review.

甚至还有一些 PR,我可以直接打开来看、来 review。

And the feedback channel, where's that feedback coming from?

那这个反馈渠道,反馈是从哪儿来的?

Is that like emails, Twitter's, or a combo of everything?

是邮件、Twitter,还是各种来源的混合?

Our feedback channels are definitely, we have a lot from internal, but also like emails, channels.

我们的反馈渠道嘛,内部来的肯定占了很大一块,但也有邮件、各种频道。

Actually, everybody, like when we all get feedback, even when friends ping us or on LinkedIn or socials, we'll all actually post all of that in Slack as well.

其实每个人都这样——只要我们收到反馈,哪怕是朋友私信我们,或者来自 LinkedIn、社交媒体,我们都会把这些统统发到 Slack 里。

And we also have like of course partnerships. And so we have different channels for all the various sources.

当然我们还有合作伙伴这条线。所以针对各种不同的来源,我们都建了不同的频道。

But that's what I mean of I need Claude's help to help me stay on top because there's so much incoming feedback.

但这正是我想说的——我需要 Claude 帮我跟上,因为涌进来的反馈实在太多了。

Got it. Okay, so this is cool.

明白了。好,这挺酷的。

So, this is a way of working that you've built to stay on top of all the stuff shipping, which is this kind of daily ritual / routine.

所以这是你搭建出来的一套工作方式,用来跟上所有正在交付的东西,它是这样一种每日仪式 / routine。

Where you as a manager look at what people are saying about the current state of Claude Code and Cowork.

作为管理者,你借此看大家在如何评价 Claude Code 和 Cowork 当下的状态。

And used to just like, okay, someone go fix this, go fix that.

而过去的做法只是:好,谁去把这个修了,把那个修了。

Now it's like here's the PR that will fix this thing, check it out. We're ready to ship it if you want.

现在则变成:这是能修好这件事的 PR,你看一下;只要你愿意,我们就能直接发布了。

That's right.

没错。

"Okay, like obviously a big challenge for people is also just code review."

好,显然大家面临的另一个大挑战就是代码审查。

"I imagine Claude is also doing a lot of its own code reviews."

我猜 Claude 自己也在做大量的代码审查。

"There anything there you've recently figured out that allows your teams to ship faster stuff that they are confident is great?"

这方面你们最近有没有摸索出什么,能让团队更快交付、又对质量有信心的东西?

"Yeah, and honestly, it's crazy when you think we didn't even have Claude Code Reviews last year."

嗯,说实话挺疯狂的,你想想,去年我们连 Claude Code Reviews 都还没有。

"And so speaking of bottlenecks, that was a really really big bottleneck of, you know, the human reviewers."

所以说到瓶颈,人工评审员当时就是一个非常非常大的瓶颈。

"So, we definitely for the important like areas that need deep subject matter expertise, we definitely want to make sure we have the proper, you know, like human still reviewing."

所以对于那些重要的、需要深厚专业知识的领域,我们一定要确保仍然有合适的人来评审。

"I would say what helps us though is the more that we can automate to almost check in the framework for what good looks like."

不过我想说,真正帮到我们的是:我们越能把"什么是好"的标准框架自动检查起来,越好。

"Claude is very good when you give it a framework to validate against those frameworks."

当你给 Claude 一个框架,让它对照这些框架去验证时,它做得非常好。

"So, I had mentioned like, you know, recently we just updated the content design to have a scale in it."

我之前提到过,我们最近刚更新了内容设计,给它加了一套分级标准。

"And this is why I think if you have specs, like check those into the repo and then make sure the spec also keeps up to date with the code, like frequently."

这也是为什么我觉得,如果你有 spec,就把它们 check 进 repo,并且要确保 spec 经常跟代码保持同步更新。

"But that's what I found, like, works really well: any time you have like a statement of what good looks like, get that into the repo and then Claude code review can make sure it's still matching what you set up to do."

但我发现这套做法真的很管用:只要你有一份"什么是好"的明确说明,就把它放进 repo,然后 Claude 的代码审查就能确保代码始终符合你最初设定的标准。

"Basically, it's like the evolution of test-driven development."

基本上,这就像是 TDD(测试驱动开发)的进化版。

"Yes, for TDD it's cuz I remember that was like a big thing, my gosh, maybe like in the 2000s, of write the test first and then you can make sure the test fails, then you do actually the code."

对,说到 TDD,我记得那曾经是个大热门,天哪,大概是 2000 年代吧——先写测试,确保测试失败,然后才真正去写代码。

"In principle, it's really good but I think I remember that I myself struggling a bit because it was almost like you have to eat the broccoli first."

原理上它真的很好,但我记得我自己当年有点抗拒,因为那几乎就像是逼你先吃苦。

"That's why I'm like, ah, you have to write this test first and I just get so much thrill out of shipping and building product."

所以我就会想:啊,还得先写这个测试,而我明明是从交付、从做产品里获得巨大快感的人。

"So, that's funny."

所以这事挺有意思的。

"Actually, the first bug I fixed on Claude Code, I remember asking Claude, 'Hey, I want to do test-driven development. Help me write the test first. Make sure it fails and then we'll actually, you know, do the fix and then now that test pass.'"

其实我在 Claude Code 上修的第一个 bug,我记得就是让 Claude:"嘿,我想做测试驱动开发,先帮我写测试,确保它会失败,然后我们再真正去修,修完那个测试就通过了。"

"And the fact that that used to be, you know, like that test generation used to just be this tax that I remember having to pay."

而过去呢,写测试这件事对我来说就是一笔不得不交的"税"。

"Like the fact that that's now automated and you can even revisit all these principles that have been around for a while but now they actually might be even more efficient just because you have the models that can do more of the work for you."

而现在它被自动化了,你甚至可以重新捡起这些存在已久的原则——它们如今可能反而更高效了,只因为你有了能替你干更多活的模型。

"Yeah, like that's so unfair. It just writes the test for you first."

是啊,这也太不公平了。它直接先帮你把测试写好。

"So, on this point of builders, one of my favorite slides from your talk that I want to ask you about is who you are hiring and what you look for in people."

那说到 builder,你演讲里我最喜欢的一张幻灯片,我想问问你——你们在招什么样的人,以及你在人身上看重什么。

"And so, I'll read what you said there and I want to hear more here."

我把你当时说的念出来,然后想听你多讲讲。

"So, the two profiles that you now look for when you're hiring are creative builders with product sense and deep systems experts for the hard parts."

你现在招人看的两类画像是:有产品 sense 的创造型 builder,以及负责攻坚硬骨头的深度系统专家。

"Yeah, the deep subject matter expertise."

对,深厚的专业领域知识。

"Like for example, when I first joined Claude Code, we had really great kind of like product generalists."

比如说,我刚加入 Claude Code 时,我们有一批非常出色的产品多面手。

"And then I realized, oh, we were missing folks with systems background."

然后我意识到,哦,我们缺的是有系统背景的人。

"And so, that was definitely an area that we needed more folks with kind of like systems and distributed systems expertise."

所以那确实是一个我们需要更多人的领域——懂系统、懂分布式系统的人。

"And so, I would say whatever are the parts that it's all about trust but verify."

所以我会说,关键在于"信任,但要核验"。

"The models are really good, but there are definitely a lot of areas that still need verification."

模型确实很强,但仍然有很多地方需要核验。

"And so, wherever you need the deep subject matter expertise, I would say that's an area to definitely still invest in."

所以凡是需要深度专业知识的地方,我都会说那绝对是值得继续投入的领域。

"And the other one is kind of like the product sense, works almost like the dreamers."

而另一类则是有产品 sense 的人,几乎可以说是"造梦者"。

"Like these are folks that usually will be like, 'Oh my gosh, I'm really passionate about a product.'"

这些人通常会说:"天哪,我对某个产品真的充满热情。"

"And they have an idea, they build it, and then it's always like looking at the feedback, and then iterating, and polishing, and making sure that the product is a delightful experience."

他们有了想法就动手做,然后不断看反馈、迭代、打磨,确保产品是一种令人愉悦的体验。

"Like owning that product end-to-end."

就是端到端地对那个产品全权负责。

"That's like another skill set that served us really well on Claude Code."

这是另一套在 Claude Code 上对我们帮助极大的能力组合。

"This super resonates."

这句话太有共鸣了。

"There's this word ambition."

有个词叫"野心"(ambition)。

"I don't know if you used it, but that's what I thought of as you were talking."

我不确定你刚才有没有用过这个词,但你说的时候我脑子里冒出来的就是它。

"That's been coming up a bunch recently in the podcast and in other work I've been doing."

最近无论是在播客里,还是在我做的其他事情里,这个词都反复出现。

"There's this 10X engineer I was talking to the other day, and he was just like, 'I used to — I heard about a feature idea, like I have someone's like, 'Hey, we should build this.' And I was like, 'No, that's really hard and complicated.''"

前几天我跟一个 10X 工程师聊,他说:"以前我一听到某个功能点子,比如有人跟我说'嘿,我们该把这个做出来',我会回'不行,这太难太复杂了'。"

"And he's like, 'But now I'm like, no, no, that's so possible. I just ask Claude Code to do it. And it just does it.'"

"可现在我会说,不不,这完全做得到。我直接让 Claude Code 去做,它就真做出来了。"

"And it's this whole mindset shift."

这是一整套心态的转变。

"And he's just realizing now it's about how ambitious can you be?"

他现在才意识到,问题变成了:你的野心能有多大?

"Like everything is now possible in theory."

理论上,现在一切都成为可能了。

"Now it's about how ambitious and how big can you think versus just like, 'Okay, it's all these stupid little features and things I have to unblock.'"

现在的关键是你的野心有多大、你能想得多大,而不再是"行吧,无非就是一堆零碎的小功能、一堆要我去疏通的破事"。

"Does that resonate? Is that something that you think about?"

这有共鸣吗?这是你也会去想的事吗?

"Yeah, so actually I was just catching up with an engineer yesterday."

是的,其实我昨天刚跟一位工程师聊过。

"He's actually not a mobile engineer by trade, but we really needed to update this feature to also have a mobile footprint."

他本职并不是做移动端的,但我们当时特别需要把这个功能也铺到移动端上去。

"And it was just amazing."

结果太惊艳了。

"Because it's common — you might think, 'Wait, but I'm not like an Android expert.'"

因为这是很常见的顾虑——你可能会想:"等等,可我又不是 Android 专家。"

"But now, thanks to Claude, actually I can have a partner and actually also do this on the mobile surfaces."

但现在,多亏了 Claude,我等于有了一个搭档,真的也能把它做到移动端上去。

"And so that definitely resonates."

所以这一点我绝对有共鸣。

"It's like it's lifted the ceiling of what anyone is able to do."

它就像是抬高了每个人能力的上限。

"Let me follow that thread."

让我顺着这条线往下问。

"As the role has transformed in such a crazy way, some people are thriving, some people super frustrated, unhappy, fighting, resisting."

这个角色发生了如此疯狂的转变,有些人如鱼得水,有些人则极度沮丧、不开心,又是对抗又是抵触。

"What do you see common across the people that are doing really well, the engineers that have adapted and are thriving, versus the engineers — and even outside engineering — that are just like frustrated and having a bad time?"

那些做得特别好的人——已经适应、过得风生水起的工程师——和那些只是一味沮丧、过得很糟的工程师(甚至工程之外的人)相比,你看到他们身上各自有什么共同点?

"I would say that a growth mindset really, really helps."

我会说,growth mindset(成长型心态)真的非常非常有帮助。

"Like actually even before AI tooling, I found that has been just so valuable."

其实早在 AI 工具出现之前,我就发现它极其宝贵。

"And I learned that a lot — actually it was the shift from Microsoft to Meta."

我也是慢慢才悟到这一点的——真正的契机是从 Microsoft 跳到 Meta 的那次转变。

"That was where, that first year, I'm like, 'Oh, this is what having a growth mindset really means.'"

就是在那儿,在头一年,我才明白:"哦,原来拥有 growth mindset 是这么回事。"

"It's really this concept of always be learning."

它的核心其实就是:永远在学习。

"Also, what served you to get you to this point will serve you no longer."

还有一点:把你带到今天这个位置的那套东西,往后不会再继续管用了。

"But it's really hard because, of course, we've all gotten to this state by operating in a certain way."

可这很难,因为说到底,我们每个人都是靠某种特定的做事方式才走到今天这一步的。

"And so sometimes it is a little bit scary to think, 'Wait, but I've been successful so far. You're asking me to change what has made me successful.'"

所以有时候想到这点会有点吓人:"等等,我一路都挺成功的,你现在却要我去改掉那个让我成功的东西?"

"And so I would say the growth mindset has really, really served me well, and I think it's also served others well that I notice."

所以我会说,growth mindset 真的让我受益匪浅,而且在我观察到的人里,它同样让别人受益良多。

"Like always leaning in with curiosity and always being able to learn."

就是那种总是带着好奇心去靠近、总是保持学习能力的状态。

"And then in terms of the frustration, I think sometimes I also see a little bit of fear."

至于那种沮丧,我觉得有时候我也从中看到了一点恐惧。

"And so my advice there is — at least this is how, just in life — fear is of course an evolutionary thing."

所以我在这方面的建议是——至少在我自己的人生里是这样——恐惧当然是一种进化而来的东西。

"I didn't study anthropology, but I think it makes sense, right?"

我没学过人类学,但我觉得这说得通,对吧?

"It helps us make sure we were able to survive and not get eaten by larger predators."

它帮我们确保自己能活下来,不会被更大的捕食者吃掉。

"But for anything that there is a fear, my advice is kind of lean in and ask, 'Okay, what can I do about it? What is within my control?'"

但只要是会让你恐惧的事,我的建议都是主动迎上去问一句:"好,我能为它做点什么?哪些是我能掌控的?"

"Cuz sometimes the frustration comes from fear and feeling like everything is outside of my control and so it's happening to me."

因为那种沮丧有时正源于恐惧,源于觉得一切都不受自己控制、是命运在摆布自己。

"And so if you think about, 'Okay, what is in your control?' — instead of happening to you, is it happening for you?"

所以如果你换个角度想"好,哪些在我掌控之中?"——这件事与其说是降临在你身上,不如说是为了你而发生的?

"And then what's something that you might be able to do and change?"

然后再想:有什么是你也许真能去做、去改变的?

"Like I felt that's been helpful, cuz if not, it is super frustrating to have the fear and then feeling like everything's outside of your control."

我觉得这招挺管用,因为不然的话,既有恐惧又觉得一切都不在自己掌控之中,那真的会让人特别崩溃。

"Like I actually remembered — it's funny when we were going back to IBM — when I was in high school, I actually didn't go into computer science or engineering."

我其实想起来——说来好笑,刚才我们聊回 IBM 那会儿——我上高中时,其实并没有走计算机或工程这条路。

"Like I really wanted to be a visual artist."

我那时是真心想当一名视觉艺术家。

"And this is how far back we go — back then computers were really expensive."

这得追溯到很久以前了——那个年代电脑还非常贵。

"I actually didn't even have access to a computer."

我那时甚至连一台电脑都接触不到。

"My first time with access to a computer was grade nine, I think, in high school."

我第一次能用上电脑,大概是九年级、也就是高中的时候。

"I don't even know if this happens in high school anymore — my high school had a typing class."

我都不知道现在的高中还有没有这种课了——我那所高中开过一门打字课。

"You know, a typing class just to learn how to type on a keyboard and learn to be really proficient, and that was my first time."

你懂的,就是教你怎么在键盘上打字、把它练得很熟的那种课,那是我头一回接触。

"And then the next class was maybe like some HTML programming."

再后来的一门课,大概是讲一些 HTML 编程的。

"But the reason why I fell in love with it was — what I love about art is creating, and if you have an idea, you can go ahead and create and tell a story."

但我之所以会爱上它,是因为——我热爱艺术的地方正在于创造,在于只要你有一个念头,就能动手把它创造出来、讲出一个故事。

"And then I realized, 'Oh, computers and programming — that enables me to do that.'"

然后我意识到:"哦,电脑和编程——这东西能让我做到这件事。"

"So anyways, I tried to really fast try to make up for all the science classes for me to get into university."

总之,我拼命想用最快的速度把所有理科课程补上,好让自己能考进大学。

"But I had this fear of, 'Oh, but how will I afford to get into an engineering school?'"

可我心里一直有个恐惧:"哦,可是我哪来的钱去念工程学院?"

"And it was this big unknown."

这是个巨大的未知数。

"I grew up in Ontario, so I was very grateful — I knew there was an Ontario school assistance program, OSAP I think it's called, which I'm very grateful for."

我在安大略省长大,所以我很感激——我知道有个安大略省的助学项目,好像叫 OSAP,我对它真的非常感激。

"But I didn't know how much of that would cover my tuition or expenses, and it was just this unknown, and it would be like a year out."

可我不知道它能覆盖我多少学费或开销,这就成了一个未知数,而且还是一年之后才见分晓的事。

"And I remember thinking, 'Okay, what can I do about it?'"

我记得我当时想:"好吧,那我能为这事做点什么?"

"And then as luck would have it, the National Bank of Canada just posted this flyer in our high school saying, 'Hey, we're hiring high school interns to be a bank teller.'"

然后机缘巧合,加拿大国家银行刚好在我们高中贴了张传单:"嘿,我们在招高中实习生当银行柜员。"

"And I thought, 'Oh — and of course it was going to be minimum wage, but I thought that could be a lifeline.'"

我心想:"哦——当然那肯定只是最低工资,但我觉得这也许是根救命稻草。"

"But it was funny cuz the class I hated the most in high school was accounting, so I don't know if I'd be any good at it at all."

不过好笑的是,我高中最讨厌的一门课就是会计,所以我完全不知道自己能不能干得来这活儿。

"But I signed up to be a bank teller, and that ended up being such a great decision cuz I worked all summer, saved up."

但我还是报名去当了银行柜员,结果这成了一个特别棒的决定,因为我整个夏天都在干活、攒钱。

"And then I was able to work as a bank teller on the weekends — I'd go to school Monday to Friday, and then on Saturday I'd be a bank teller."

之后我还能在周末继续当柜员——周一到周五去上学,到了周六就去当银行柜员。

"And that ended up being this lifeline that enabled me to pay for all my school expenses."

这最后真成了那根救命稻草,让我把全部学费开销都付清了。

"And we talked about the year 2000 dot com crash — when folks weren't hiring as much, actually I continued being a bank teller for two years."

我们刚才聊到 2000 年的互联网泡沫崩盘——那时候大家招人都少了很多,我索性又当了两年的银行柜员。

"But that was the one action I thought I could take that was within my control to try to counter this fear I had — if I'm really going to go down this path, I don't even know if I could have afforded to go to school."

但那就是我认为自己能掌控、能采取的那一个行动,用来对抗我心里的那份恐惧——如果我真要走这条路,我连念不念得起书都不知道。

"So that's probably my other advice — growth mindset, and if the source of frustration or anxiety is coming from there, is there one action that's within your control that you can take?"

所以这大概是我另一条建议——一是 growth mindset,二是如果沮丧或焦虑的根源出在这儿,那就问问自己:有没有哪怕一个在你掌控之内、你能去做的行动?

"Cuz I think there was a saying like — what would you do if you're not afraid?"

因为我记得有句话是这么说的——如果你不害怕,你会去做什么?

"Those were my two favorite sayings before: 'what would you do if you're not afraid,' and 'do something scary once in a while,' cuz that's also usually how we grow."

这是我以前最喜欢的两句话:"如果你不害怕,你会去做什么",还有"时不时做一件让你害怕的事",因为我们往往也正是这样成长的。

"I found that when you're really good and professional at what you do, you're kind of at peak, like maximum efficiency."

我发现,当你把手头的事做到非常出色、非常专业时,你差不多就处在巅峰、处在效率最高的状态。

"But then how do you keep growing is you then do something scary that you might not have done before, and yeah, you will have a dip because you need to learn."

那这时候怎么继续成长呢?就是去做一件以前可能没做过的、让你害怕的事——没错,你会经历一段低谷,因为你得重新学习。

"But that's kind of how you keep pushing yourself to learn."

但你差不多就是这样不断逼着自己去学习的。

"The quote that I have probably used the most on this podcast of all quotes is: the cave you fear contains the treasure you seek."

在所有引言里,我在这档播客上用得最多的大概就是这句:你所恐惧的那个山洞,藏着你所寻找的宝藏。

"Oh, I love that."

哦,我太喜欢这句了。

"Yeah, and it's so true."

是啊,而且太真实了。

"I forget who said this, but just the thing that is scariest — that's a compass towards what you should be doing."

我忘了这是谁说的了,但那件最让你害怕的事——它本身就是一个指南针,指向你真正该去做的方向。

"Mhm. I'm going to steal your quote."

嗯。我要把你这句引言"偷"走。

"Yeah, then please do."

好啊,尽管拿去用。

"Like, you know, don't do all the scary things — maybe don't jump off a cliff — but maybe in career moves it's probably a good choice."

当然了,你懂的,也别什么吓人的事都去做——比如可别真从悬崖上跳下去——但放到职业选择上,这大概是个不错的准则。

"So, kind of following this path, something that I know is important to you, something you think about that I also think about, is this kind of gap that is forming between people that are just like leaning into AI, killing it, doing super well, and then people that are just like not."

那顺着这条线说下去,有件我知道你很看重、你也在思考、我同样在思考的事:在那些全力拥抱 AI、做得风生水起的人,和那些干脆不去碰它的人之间,正在形成一道鸿沟。

"And this is like a scary time for people that may be left behind in this new world that is emerging."

对那些可能在这个正在涌现的新世界里被甩下的人来说,这是一段令人惶恐的时期。

"I know you spend a lot of time with small businesses — that's a big passion of yours, to help people learn how to use AI in their work."

我知道你花了很多时间在小企业身上——帮人们学会在工作中用 AI,是你很大的一份热情所在。

"Talk about just like how you think about that, and what maybe we should be thinking about to help folks stay — not fall behind, basically."

聊聊你是怎么看这件事的吧,以及我们或许该思考些什么,才能帮大家跟上、基本上就是别掉队。

"Oh, I love this. It's one of my passion topics, cuz I kind of mentioned, you know, growing up in Canada."

哦,我太喜欢这个话题了。这是我最有热情的话题之一,因为我刚才有提到,你懂的,我是在加拿大长大的。

"I moved there when I was a kid. I was born in Hong Kong, so I didn't speak any English, and my parents had to work all the time."

我小时候搬过去的。我出生在香港,所以一句英语都不会,而我父母又得一直忙着工作。

"So my grandma, who is the best grandma that anyone could have ever asked for — I know everybody thinks their grandma's the best, but I really was so lucky. I had the best grandma."

于是我外婆——她是世界上最好的外婆,谁都不可能求到比她更好的——我知道每个人都觉得自己外婆最好,但我是真的太幸运了,我有个最棒的外婆。

"She moved with us just to take care of me while my parents were working. But neither of us spoke English."

她跟我们一起搬了过来,就为了在我父母上班时照顾我。可我们俩都不会英语。

"But I was able to learn how to speak English by, you know, going to school and speaking with classmates."

不过我靠着上学、跟同学讲话,慢慢学会了英语。

"And when I think about my grandma, it was very alienating for her to be in a new country where, back then, it wasn't as walkable."

可一想到我外婆,她当时身处一个陌生的国度,那种格格不入的感觉很难受,而且那个年代也不像现在这样适合步行出门。

"But one summer, I remember we just happened to find this little yarn shop owned by a lady that also spoke Cantonese."

但有一年夏天,我记得我们偶然发现了一家小小的毛线店,店主是位也讲广东话的女士。

"And so that became every week, to this yarn shop, this summer — and my grandma found her knitting circle. And then I think I learned how to do, like, macrame, which I think is having a comeback, by the way."

于是那个夏天,每周去这家毛线店成了固定节目——我外婆在那儿找到了她的编织圈子。我好像还学会了编绳结(macrame),顺便说一句,我觉得这玩意儿正在重新流行起来。

"It's always funny to see what's [coming back]."

看着哪些东西又火回来,总是挺有意思的。

"Macrame coming back?"

编绳结要回潮了?

"Macrame, I think, yeah. You heard it here first on Lenny's podcast. I think macrame's coming back."

编绳结,我觉得是的。你们是在 Lenny 的播客上第一个听到这个预言的。我觉得编绳结要回来了。

"All right."

好吧。

"But that was probably where my love came from. I'm like, oh wow, this little small business created this wonderful sense of community."

但我对小生意的热爱,大概就是从那时候来的。我当时就想,哇,这家小小的店铺竟然营造出了这么美好的社区氛围。

"And I've been really fortunate to become friends with all the small businesses that I love. So that's kind of where the passion comes from."

我也很幸运,跟我喜欢的那些小店都成了朋友。所以这份热情大概就是这么来的。

"And then how it happened was, I was using Cowork for my own business, expensing travel."

至于后来的契机,是我用 Cowork 来处理自己生意上的事——报销差旅。

"I don't know what it is, I really don't like doing business expensing. And when I was using Cowork, it was magic."

我也说不清为什么,我就是特别不爱做报销这件事。而我用 Cowork 的时候,那感觉简直像变魔术。

"I'm like, all these things that I don't like to do, Cowork is doing for me."

我心想,所有这些我不爱做的事,Cowork 全替我做了。

"And I'm like, wait a minute — all my friends, and honestly small business owners, they really bust their butt. They work incredibly hard, and they're sometimes operating on really small margins."

我又一想,等等——我那些朋友,说实话还有小生意主们,他们是真的拼命。他们干得特别辛苦,而且有时利润薄得可怜。

"And so I thought, if Cowork is so good at helping me do my little business travel expense, this would be huge for it."

于是我就想,如果 Cowork 连我那点小小的差旅报销都做得这么好,那它对他们来说会是天大的帮助。

"Cuz I see my friends sometimes sitting at the bar with stacks of bills, and all they're doing is invoicing and expensing."

因为我有时会看到我的朋友坐在吧台前,面前堆着一摞摞单据,做的全是开发票和报销。

"And I think nobody actually really likes to do it. So that's kind of where it came from."

我觉得没人是真心喜欢做这些的。所以这事大概就是这么来的。

"And then, yeah, I remember helping a couple of them onboard. And it was also very humbling to see them go through our onboarding flow."

后来呢,我记得我帮着其中几位完成了上手。看着他们真实地走一遍我们的新手引导流程,也让我很受触动、很谦卑。

"Actually, it found some really good bugs. So it was really like a win-win, but it was also delightful for me, cuz they also use Cowork in ways that I wouldn't have thought about."

事实上,这还帮我们找出了几个很有价值的 bug。所以这真是双赢,而且对我来说也很惊喜,因为他们用 Cowork 的方式是我自己根本想不到的。

"Cuz I was all fixated on, look at how it is amazing with PDFs and invoice."

因为我一直只盯着一点:看它处理 PDF 和发票多厉害啊。

"And then one of my friends who runs two restaurants, she's like, 'Oh my gosh, this folder I have is basically a junk drawer.'"

结果我有个开着两家餐厅的朋友说:“天哪,我这个文件夹基本就是个杂物抽屉。”

"Our documents folder just becomes this junk drawer of, like, every download. And she's like, 'I know I have a few menus in here and I can't find it.'"

我们的文档文件夹活生生变成了一个杂物抽屉,什么下载的东西都往里塞。她说:“我知道里头有几份菜单,可我就是找不着。”

"And I'm like, 'Well, let's ask Cowork.' So we gave Cowork access to the directory, found the menus."

我说:“那不如问问 Cowork 吧。”于是我们把那个目录的访问权限给了 Cowork,菜单就找到了。

"And then she uses it in a really unique way. She goes, 'I want to make sure I keep my prices reasonable for locals and tourists.'"

接着她用了一种特别独到的方式。她说:“我想确保我的定价对本地人和游客都公道。”

"So she goes, 'Hey Claude, look across my style of cuisine in this area as a comparable.' And it came back with really cool, almost like market analysis."

于是她说:“嘿 Claude,把这一带跟我同类菜系的餐厅找出来做个对标。”它回来的结果特别酷,几乎就是一份市场分析。

"And she goes, 'Hey, I actually just went to that restaurant in Seattle and that was pretty good.' So I learn something every time. And yeah, they've been giving me great feedback as well."

她还说:“嘿,我前阵子刚去过西雅图那家餐厅,确实不错。”所以我每次都能学到点东西。是的,他们也一直在给我很棒的反馈。

"So the question then is just, how do we spread this to everybody?"

那么接下来的问题就是,我们要怎么把这件事推广给所有人?

"Because as you see, a lot of people are just like, 'I don't have time for this,' or 'I hate AI. I want to ignore it.'"

因为你也看到了,很多人就是会说:“我没时间搞这个”,或者“我讨厌 AI,我想直接无视它”。

"Is it just talking about this, sharing examples? What do you think? What's a way to make a dent in this problem?"

是靠多聊聊、多分享一些例子吗?你怎么看?有什么办法能在这个问题上撬开一道口子?

"For all of us — and especially your listeners are probably very AI-pilled — if there's anyone either in their community or their family, I would start with something that you really have felt has made a meaningful life change for you with the AI tools."

对我们所有人来说——尤其你的听众多半都是深度入坑 AI 的人——如果你的社区或家人里有这样的人,我会先从一件事讲起:某件你真切感受到 AI 工具给你生活带来了有意义改变的事。

"And then see if that is a conversation starter. Cuz for me, AI is a tool. Again, it's the whole light in the dark."

然后看看那能不能成为一个打开话题的引子。因为对我而言,AI 是一种工具。还是那句话,它关乎黑暗中的那束光。

"I totally understand the frustrating part as well. But for me, I also felt like knowledge is power."

那种让人沮丧的一面,我也完全理解。但对我来说,我也觉得知识就是力量。

"Like, you have to learn how to use the tools, because it could actually be the light part of that light-and-dark equation."

就是说,你必须学会怎么用这些工具,因为它真的有可能成为那道明暗之争里属于光的一面。

"So that's something that I would love everybody's help with — whether it's a community member or even a business you really like."

所以这是我特别希望大家都来搭把手的一件事——无论对方是社区里的某个人,还是一家你真心喜欢的店。

"It's a little awkward to start. Like, I remember when I first reached out to my friends, cuz I don't talk about what I do with them a lot."

起头是有点尴尬的。比如我记得第一次去找我朋友聊的时候,因为我平时很少跟他们提我是做什么的。

"I'm like, 'Hey, I kind of work in AI. Can I —' It's even unnatural for me to do, cuz I'm like, 'Hey, can I show you what's possible with Cowork?'"

我会说:“嘿,我其实是做 AI 的,我能不能——”连我自己做这事都觉得别扭,因为我得开口:“嘿,我能给你看看用 Cowork 能做到什么吗?”

"And then we end up having a lot of fun. So yeah, that conversation starter would be great."

可一旦聊开,我们往往都玩得很开心。所以是的,有这样一个打开话题的引子就太好了。

"Cuz I just want to make sure we keep sharing the knowledge and making the tool equitable. Cuz if not, I'm concerned that the divide grows larger and larger."

因为我只是想确保我们能持续分享这些知识,让工具变得人人可及。否则,我担心这道鸿沟会越拉越大。

"Me too. I find that sharing use cases, as you said, is so powerful."

我也是。我发现像你说的那样去分享使用场景,真的特别有力量。

"I was just using Cowork the other day to fill out my son's camp forms. And just sharing that on Twitter, a lot of people were like, 'Oh wow, I didn't think about that.'"

前几天我刚用 Cowork 帮我儿子填夏令营的表格。我把这事发到 Twitter 上,好多人都说:“哇,我都没想到还能这么用。”

"Yeah, it's just these little things you don't think about that Cowork and Claude can do."

对,就是这些你压根想不到、可 Cowork 和 Claude 都能搞定的小事。

"Kind of along those lines, speaking of Cowork, if you think about it, Anthropic has been super early on uncovering these really big opportunities ahead of everyone else."

顺着这个思路,说到 Cowork,你仔细想想,Anthropic 一直都很早就发掘出这些巨大的机会,跑在所有人前面。

"For example, coding. So far ahead. Like realizing this is a huge market."

比如编程。领先太多了。早早就意识到这是一个巨大的市场。

"Whether it was intentional or not, it was just like, 'Whoa, that's maybe the biggest new business opportunity in history.'"

不管这是不是有意为之,反正就是那种:“哇,这也许是史上最大的全新商业机会。”

"And then Cowork is a great example, just leaning into knowledge work. Let's just solve all the knowledge work. Why not? So far ahead of everyone else."

而 Cowork 又是一个绝佳的例子,直接押注知识工作。干脆把所有的知识工作都解决掉,有何不可?又是领先了所有人一大截。

"Another element is, it feels like a focus on the personality of the model — something you all were very early on, just how important that is."

还有一点,你们似乎特别看重模型的人格(personality)——这也是你们很早就意识到的一件事:它有多重要。

"Not just for the experience, but also the intelligence and success of the model."

不只是关乎使用体验,也关乎模型本身的智能水平和能否成功。

"What is it that you think Anthropic and the teams do differently that allows you to uncover these opportunities and then just go big on them before other labs, let's say?"

你觉得 Anthropic 和这些团队到底有什么不一样的做法,让你们能发掘出这些机会,然后抢在其他实验室之前就重注押下去?

"Well, I haven't worked in any other labs, so I'm not sure how other labs operate, but actually on the Claude Code team as well as Cowork, we also keep an eye on latent demand."

我没在别的实验室待过，所以不太清楚其他实验室是怎么运作的，但其实在 Claude Code 团队、还有 Cowork，我们也一直盯着 latent demand。

"Now, we're very fortunate with coding as a use case because so many ants—you know, like our own first customers—and we're able to do really rapid feedback."

在写代码这个场景上我们特别幸运，因为太多 Anthropic 的人本身就是我们的第一批用户，所以我们能拿到非常快速的反馈。

"But latent demand has been, like, for example with Cowork, we noticed: hey, a lot of folks that were not necessarily coders were using Claude Code."

而 latent demand 的例子，比如 Cowork，我们发现：嘿，很多并不是程序员的人也在用 Claude Code。

"Can we make that experience better?"

我们能不能把这部分体验做得更好？

"I think that's actually even outside of Anthropic that served me well in all the different products I've worked on."

我觉得这一点其实在 Anthropic 之外也成立，在我做过的各种产品里它都帮了我很大忙。

"And actually it's funny you mentioned my passion with small business—after I had a few of these visits, we ended up now launching Claude for small business."

还有挺巧的，你提到我对小企业的那股热情——在我做了几次这样的走访之后，我们现在干脆推出了面向小企业的 Claude。

"Which is really cool because—and it totally didn't come from me, so I'm not taking credit—but I noticed it too."

这事儿挺酷的，因为——它完全不是我提出来的，所以我不抢功劳——但我也确实注意到了这个现象。

"When I was working with them, they were asking me, 'Oh, does it have this plugin, this plugin?' I'm like, 'I think it does,' and then we have to go and search for it."

我跟他们一起工作时，他们老问我：「哦，它有没有这个插件、那个插件？」我说「应该有吧」，然后我们就得去搜一通。

"So actually now Claude for small business bundles it all up, so inside Cowork you just have this little toggle."

所以现在面向小企业的 Claude 把这些全打包好了，在 Cowork 里你只要拨一个小开关就行。

"And there was a wonderful team that's been doing Cowork sessions with small business that probably found, hey, we could have an efficiency gain here, or make the experience better."

有个特别棒的团队一直在陪小企业做 Cowork 实操，他们大概就发现了：嘿，这里能提效，或者能把体验做得更好。

"And so I would say always—not only for products that you're on, making sure you're always listening to feedback and always iterating, trying to make a delightful, reliable, high-quality experience—but then also keeping an eye out for: oh, what are these other use cases that are popping up, and can we also make that experience better?"

所以我想说，永远要这么做——不光是对你正在做的产品，要一直听反馈、一直迭代，努力打磨出让人惊喜、可靠、高质量的体验——同时还要留意：哦，又冒出哪些别的使用场景了，我们能不能也把那部分体验做好？

"It's interesting—in software I've learned that customers will use your product in ways that you did not intend, for good or for bad."

挺有意思的——做软件这么久我学到一点：用户总会以你没设想过的方式来用你的产品，有好有坏。

"And so the best way is really, it's all about the iteration: learn and keep close to the feedback."

所以最好的办法说到底就是迭代：边学边做，紧贴着反馈走。

"Latent demand. That's a term that's come up a bunch on this podcast."

Latent demand。这个词在我这个播客里反复被人提到。

"It's on there."

它确实榜上有名。

"Might be something there."

这里头可能真有点东西。

"So essentially it's just watching closely for behavior that you may not have expected, or that is just kind of emerging, and then just going big on that—exploring it, building something."

所以本质上就是密切观察那些你没预料到、或者正在冒头的用户行为，然后就大胆压上去——去探索它，做出点东西来。

"Yeah. And having a hypothesis—because actually when you see people jumping through hoops to make something work, can you actually make that an even smoother and better experience?"

对。而且要有一个假设——因为当你看到有人为了把某件事跑通而费尽周折时，你能不能干脆把那段体验做得更顺、更好？

"Coming back to the way that your teams operate—you guys are so at the edge of what's possible, and the role of just engineering has changed so much."

回到你们团队的运作方式——你们站在可能性的最前沿，而工程师这个角色本身也变了太多。

"I'm curious what you think is the next kind of frontier of how engineering in particular is going to change."

我很好奇，你觉得工程领域接下来的下一个前沿会是什么样的变化。

"Is it like, I don't know, fleets of agents? Is it something else?"

会是，我也说不准，成群结队的 agent 吗？还是别的什么？

"Just, what's the next big shift to how engineers operate that either you're already working on or implementing, or it's just starting to happen?"

就是说，工程师工作方式上的下一个大转变是什么——可能你们已经在做、在落地，或者它才刚刚开始发生？

"I would say we're shifting more towards async, like asynchronous."

我会说,我们正越来越往 async、也就是异步的方向走。

"And so to your point, the fleets of agents, that's why routines is so interesting, because I used to be doing a prompt synchronously."

所以回到你说的那点,成队的 agent——这正是 routines 让人着迷的地方,因为我过去都是同步地敲一个 prompt。

"And then I would maybe kick off different prompts asynchronously."

然后我可能会异步地启动几个不同的 prompt。

"But now I can actually have a routine that generates these prompts for me."

但现在我可以直接有一个 routine,替我把这些 prompt 生成出来。

"So it's almost like the level of abstraction keeps pulling up a little bit."

所以抽象的层级几乎是在不断往上抬。

"I wish I had a crystal ball to see what this is going to look like."

真希望我有个水晶球,能看清这未来会变成什么样。

"It'll be fun actually for you and me to revisit a year from now."

其实一年后你我再回头聊这个,一定很有意思。

"No, I want to hear more about this."

不,我想多听听这个。

"So help us understand: what is routines, and then what do you mean by asynchronous?"

帮我们理解一下:routines 到底是什么?你说的异步又是什么意思?

"You're writing a prompt and it just kind of goes off — is it writing it immediately?"

你写一个 prompt,它就这么跑起来了——它是当场就开始写吗?

"Talk about what this actually looks like."

讲讲这实际上是个什么样子。

"Yeah, so routines is like — if you remember, what I used to do is always wake up with my morning cup of coffee and say, hey, look through this Slack channel for me."

嗯,routines 大概是这样——你还记得吧,我过去总是端着早上那杯咖啡醒来,然后说,嘿,帮我把这个 Slack 频道翻一遍。

"But now I have a routine that I set to run every morning at a certain time to say, hey."

但现在我设了一个 routine,让它每天早上固定时间自动跑,替我去说那句"嘿"。

"But then it's able to actually go and kick off agents on your behalf."

而且它还能真的代你去启动一批 agent。

"That's because — even before, you could do a cron job to automate things."

因为——其实以前你也能用一个 cron job 来做自动化。

"But now it's: hey, look at this feedback, and if you're seeing some of these bugs, what are some polish fixes that you might be able to knock out?"

但现在变成了:嘿,看看这些反馈,如果你发现里头有几个 bug,有哪些打磨性的修复是你顺手就能搞定的?

"And then it would go kick off, and I wake up and end up having PRs that I could review."

然后它就去跑了,等我一觉醒来,手头已经有几个可以直接 review 的 PR。

"Versus before, which was still more of a different agents thing, and I'm still thinking about: okay, now what do I do with this information?"

而以前那套还停留在"一堆 agent 各干各的"层面,我还得自己想:好,那这些信息我现在要拿来干嘛?

"So it's like that higher level abstraction of: okay, now how can I actually write a routine that also does prompts for me for spawning different agents?"

所以它是那种更高层的抽象:好,我现在怎么写一个 routine,让它连"替我生成 prompt 去派生不同的 agent"这件事都包了?

"So I think we'll move more towards that kind of asynchronous style of working."

所以我觉得,我们会越来越往那种异步的工作方式靠拢。

"So interesting."

太有意思了。

"So in a sense, as a manager, you have these kinds of things you do daily."

所以某种意义上,作为一个管理者,你每天都有这么一摊子例行要做的事。

"And what you're saying is you can set up these prompts that check in every day on the things you would have been doing — like how are the projects going? What's falling behind? What should I unblock? Who's struggling? How do I improve some polish?"

你说的是,你可以设好这些 prompt,让它们每天替你盯着你本来要盯的那些事——比如项目进展怎么样?哪些落后了?我该去疏通哪个堵点?谁卡住了?有哪些细节我该再打磨一下?

"And so the idea you're describing here is to write these things that you almost do as a manager daily, and have Claude essentially do them for you."

所以你描述的这个思路,就是把你身为管理者几乎每天都在做的事写下来,然后基本上让 Claude 替你去做。

"And then show you: here's what I'm doing, here's what there is to review."

然后它再回过头告诉你:这是我在做的事,这是有待你 review 的部分。

"And then it's even giving even more autonomy at some point — you know what, go for it."

然后到了某个点,它甚至会被赋予更多自主权——那种"行,你放手去干"的感觉。

"Like for example, if the verification is really good, go for it."

比如说,如果验证机制做得足够好,那就放手去干吧。

"I see. So you give it a little bit of freedom to do more of this."

我懂了。所以你给它一点自由,让它多干一些这类事。

"That is so interesting."

这太有意思了。

"It reminds me, speaking on this idea of 'go for it' — I wasn't planning to talk about this, but I just watched Tyler Cowen had this awesome talk about just what's happening."

说到"放手去干"这个点,让我想起一件事——我本来没打算聊这个,但我刚看了 Tyler Cowen 一个很棒的演讲,讲的就是当下正在发生的事。

"I don't know if you know Tyler Cowen — really smart dude, economist, has a podcast."

不知道你认不认识 Tyler Cowen——非常聪明的一个人,经济学家,有自己的播客。

"And his term for the people that are doing best in this world is 'initiative' — they have initiative."

他用来形容这世界上做得最好的那群人的词是"主动性"(initiative)——他们有主动性。

"Another term people use — people hear this a lot — is that the people who seem to be doing best are taking the most initiative, getting the most proactive, have the most agency."

还有一个大家常听到的说法是:那些看起来做得最好的人,往往最主动出击、最积极、有最强的 agency。

"Does that spark any thoughts for you, just what people may need to think about or improve on?"

这有没有让你想到些什么——比如大家或许该去琢磨、或该去提升的地方?

"Actually, that's agency — that word, agency."

其实那就是 agency——就是这个词,agency。

"That's what we really hold important on the Claude Code and Cowork team."

这正是我们在 Claude Code 和 Cowork 团队里真正看重的东西。

"It's about: hey, here's a problem, and everybody on the team has ideas for how to address the problem."

它讲的是:嘿,这有个问题,然后团队里每个人都对怎么解决它有自己的想法。

"So it's really high agency, and then we say, with high agency is also high accountability."

所以是真正的高 agency,而我们说,高 agency 同时也意味着高 accountability。

"So it's all about making sure folks have that freedom to cook."

所以关键就在于,确保大家有那份"放开手去施展"的自由。

"But then it's also: okay, what's the accountability for it as well?"

但与此同时也得问:好,那这件事的 accountability 又在哪里?

"And again, it goes back to: what's the hypothesis of what you're trying to solve?"

而这又绕回到那个问题:你想解决的事,背后的假设是什么?

"So I think that balance — almost like two sides of the same coin, agency and accountability — has served our team really well."

所以我觉得,这种平衡——agency 和 accountability 几乎就是同一枚硬币的两面——让我们团队受益很大。

"Such an important element — having agency."

这是个特别重要的要素——拥有 agency。

"Okay cool, everyone's off doing stuff, but okay — what have you actually done? What have you busted up?"

好,很棒,大家都各自忙开了,但是——你到底真正做成了什么?你啃下了哪块硬骨头?

"So along those lines, it feels like there's this vibe shift recently from token maxing — just go crazy, spend as much as possible, see what's possible — to: wait, what are we actually getting out of this? How much is it costing? What's the ROI?"

顺着这个思路,最近好像有一种风向的转变:从"token maxing"——就是放开了造,能花多少花多少,看看到底能做出什么——转向了"等等,我们到底从中得到了什么?它花了多少钱?ROI 是多少?"

"Interestingly, Boris was actually head of product eng productivity at Meta — that was his job, measuring eng productivity."

有意思的是,Boris 在 Meta 当时其实是负责 product eng productivity 的头儿——他的工作就是衡量 eng productivity。

"And then also this tweet of lines per code, code shipped — there's this interesting discussion of how you actually measure productivity increase and ROI of AI tools in spend."

再加上那条关于"每行代码、交付了多少代码"的推文——大家正热烈地讨论一件事:你究竟该怎么衡量 AI 工具带来的生产力提升,以及这笔投入的 ROI。

"You guys have the infinite advantage of getting free tokens working at Anthropic."

你们在 Anthropic 工作有个无限的优势:token 随便用,免费。

"With that in mind, what have you learned about how to measure, say, ROI of engineers in today's world?"

在这个前提下,关于在当今这个时代该怎么衡量比如工程师的 ROI,你都摸索出了些什么?

"This eng productivity is such a fascinating topic."

eng productivity 这个话题太有意思了。

"Because I remember, you know, even for us, like, we'll first start with lines of code, and that's throughput."

因为我记得,你懂的,连我们自己一开始也是从代码行数入手,把它当作吞吐量。

"And then I remember once there was a debate of, well, this engineer had this crazy lines of code, but they just took some library and was porting it."

然后我记得有一次大家在争论:这位工程师的代码行数高得离谱,可他只是拿了某个库在做移植。

"So they checked it in, and I was like, well, maybe it's significant lines of code."

他把代码提交了进来,我心想,这行数也许是有分量的。

"And then, well, what if we're updating our frameworks and now we're generating less code, but the output's still the same?"

可反过来呢——要是我们在升级框架,代码生成得更少了,但产出还是一样的,又怎么算?

"So now I'm like, okay, maybe it's time to land a PR."

于是我又想,好吧,也许该看「一个 PR 落地要多久」。

"But it's very interesting, it's always been whichever metric — my advice here is, is the output really going towards the outcome?"

但很有意思,无论你挑哪个指标都一样——我的建议是:这个产出真的指向你想要的结果吗?

"Because the token maxing, it's almost like the lines of code that we used to have."

因为一味追求 token 数,几乎就是当年那套堆代码行数的老把戏。

"But I'm really much more about: what is it that we're trying to do?"

我更在意的是:我们到底想做成什么?

"There was another saying I really like — don't forsake motion for progress."

还有一句话我特别喜欢——别把瞎忙活当成真进展。

"Because if you're measuring tool usage, then you're measuring the action, but is it really making whatever the end outcome of yours important?"

因为你要是去衡量工具的使用量,你衡量的只是动作,可它真的推动了你最终想要的那个结果吗?

"And so I really try to zoom out and focus on: what is the problem we're trying to solve? What's a good way to measure that?"

所以我会努力跳出来,盯住这两件事:我们要解决的问题是什么?有什么好办法去衡量它?

"And then that's what we focus mostly on, versus the productivity measurement."

这才是我们主要关注的,而不是那套生产力度量。

"I would say though, outside of metrics, especially on teams as you're having more people adopt AI tooling, definitely go on a listening tour."

不过我想说,除了指标之外,尤其当团队里越来越多人用上 AI 工具时,一定要去做一轮「倾听之旅」。

"For the leaders listening to a podcast especially, I love to focus on the senior engineers as well."

尤其是正在听播客的那些 leader,我也很喜欢重点听听资深工程师的声音。

"Hear from them on what's working, what's not, how can we actually make it better, because they will also help you multiply and scale that out across a full engineering team."

听他们讲什么管用、什么不管用、我们到底怎么把它做得更好,因为他们还能帮你把这些经验放大、铺到整个工程团队。

"And sometimes there's those conversations where you might get sparked an idea, and also really good shared learning, versus metric dashboards."

而且有时候这种对话会迸出一个点子,还能带来很好的共同学习,这是指标仪表盘给不了的。

"It's very interesting. I've learned some good lessons from metrics."

这很有意思。我从指标里也学到过不少好教训。

"It's really great when you have a metric that you can actually hill climb on, but always keep in mind my whole growth mindset of: is it still serving you?"

当你有一个能真正去爬坡优化的指标时,那很棒,但永远记住我那套 growth mindset:它还在帮到你吗?

"Always keep in mind, is that metric really still serving the outcome that you were aiming for?"

时刻记着:这个指标真的还在服务于你当初瞄准的那个结果吗?

"A fun example I have with this is in the early Facebook Marketplace days — we were launching by region, and we really wanted to make sure we're building a delightful product before we expand."

我有个好玩的例子,是 Facebook Marketplace 早期的事——我们当时按地区逐个上线,想在扩张前先确保打磨出一款让人用着开心的产品。

"And one thing we would keep an eye on is kind of like number of sellers."

我们紧盯的一个指标就是卖家数量。

"And I remember after launching our first region, I'm like, in this area the number of sellers is low, but actually people are finding items that they're looking for."

我记得第一个地区上线后,我发现:这片区域的卖家数量很低,可买家其实真能找到他们想要的东西。

"Which is what we're aiming for — helping people find items that they need."

而这正是我们的目标——帮人们找到他们需要的东西。

"And then I realized in that region it wasn't a large number of sellers, but there were power sellers."

然后我意识到,那个地区卖家数量不多,但有一批「超级卖家」。

"But our first gate before we expand would have just been factoring heavily number of sellers."

可我们扩张前的第一道关卡,本来只会死盯着卖家数量这一项。

"And this goes back to that whole people will use things in ways you may not expect, and ship to learn faster."

这又回到那句话:人们使用东西的方式会出乎你的意料,所以要先发布、再快速学习。

"And so then we updated the metric — it's not number of sellers, because it didn't factor in power sellers."

于是我们改了这个指标——不再看卖家数量,因为它没把超级卖家算进去。

"And so that's the advice I have: whatever metric, whether for productivity or even for product, always keep an eye and make sure you're not just blindly following a metric that used to make sense."

所以这就是我的建议:无论什么指标,不管是生产力的还是产品的,都要时刻留意,别戴着眼罩盲目追随一个「曾经合理」的指标。

"Because sometimes the landscape can change so fast, even the metrics themselves might need to be adjusted."

因为有时候大环境变得太快,连指标本身都可能需要跟着调整。

"And this comes back to your process that you shared of having Claude watch all the PRs shipping per engineer, let's say."

这又回到你之前分享的那套做法:让 Claude 盯着每位工程师交付的所有 PR。

"And then not focusing on the metrics, but focusing on that leading to a conversation about what impact this had, what were maybe some bugs that happened."

然后重点不放在指标上,而是让它引出一场对话:这件事带来了什么影响、可能出过哪些 bug。

"And that being a really powerful way of understanding what's going on with this engineer."

这就成了一种非常有力的方式,去了解这位工程师的真实状态。

"Awesome."

太好了。

"Let me come back to this question of speed and quality and just like impact."

我想再回到速度、质量,还有影响力这个问题上。

"Is there anything else you've learned about how to balance those things?"

关于怎么平衡这几样,你还学到过别的什么吗?

"There's a crazy velocity of code that's being generated, and you just stay on top of quality and impact."

代码以疯狂的速度被生成出来,而你还得同时把控住质量和影响力。

"Is there anything there that might be helpful to other teams that are trying to wrangle all these PRs being shipped every day?"

有没有什么经验,能帮到那些每天忙着应付海量 PR 的团队?

"I would say, and this is honestly what we want to keep doing more of and being better at — the proactive quality."

我会说,而且老实讲这也是我们想继续加码、想做得更好的方向——主动出击的质量管理。

"Especially for quality, making sure what are the experiences that are key, and, you actually speak of metric, those are really good things to make sure you can see trends over time."

尤其在质量上,要弄清哪些体验是关键的;说到指标,这些恰恰是好东西,能让你看出随时间变化的趋势。

"And so on the quality front, the more proactive we can be of making sure we can get an earlier detection into quality — that's been one thing we've been paying a lot of attention to."

所以在质量这条线上,我们越主动越好,要尽量更早地发现质量问题——这是我们一直高度关注的一件事。

"So I started this: hey, let's have a concept of what's bad versus what's sad."

于是我提出了这个:嘿,我们来区分一下什么是 bad、什么是 sad。

"And bad is like a very bad, irrecoverable error."

bad 指的是非常糟糕、无法挽回的错误。

"And sad is something that's kind of like a pain point, recoverable, but it's interesting when you stack up sads, it could generally go to bad."

sad 则是某种痛点,还能挽回,但有意思的是,当一堆 sad 累积起来,通常就会演变成 bad。

"But even having a high-level framework like that — because sometimes with dashboards you can have time to load or all these other things, but when you're dealing with a lot of different product surfaces, it's harder to go, wait, is that a good number or not a good number?"

但哪怕只有这么一个高层框架也好——因为有时候仪表盘上摆着加载耗时之类的一堆数字,而当你面对许许多多不同的产品界面时,你很难判断「等等,这个数到底是好还是不好?」

"And so one thing that's helped us, versus just raw performance or reliability numbers, is also having some framework of what we think is a bad experience."

所以有一件事帮了我们:与其只看赤裸裸的性能或可靠性数字,不如同时建立一套框架,界定我们眼中怎样才算糟糕的体验。

"And making sure we're focused on addressing those, and then also keeping an eye on where we're seeing in terms of the sad. That's helped us a little bit."

确保我们集中精力去解决那些问题,同时也盯着 sad 都出现在哪里。这对我们多少有些帮助。

"I like the bad and sad. So these are kind of like thresholds of: this is bad, okay, this is serious."

我喜欢这个 bad 和 sad。所以它们有点像阈值:这是 bad,好,这事严重了。

"And this is in terms of performance or failures, or what sort of things are you measuring here?"

这是针对性能、还是故障,你们具体在衡量哪类东西?

"So for example, speak of agency — we allow each team, knowing that bad is a really bad, irrecoverable error, we enable each team for further surface areas or services that they lead."

举个例子,说到 agency——我们让每个团队来定,前提是大家都清楚 bad 指的是非常糟糕、无法挽回的错误,然后由各团队为他们负责的更多界面或服务去界定。

"So for example, on CLI it could be crash rates. Like a crash is pretty bad. You lost work."

比如在 CLI 上,可能就是崩溃率。崩溃就挺糟糕的,你的工作成果丢了。

"And a sad might be, hey, is it flickering? It might be recoverable."

而一个 sad 可能是:嘿,界面在闪烁吗?这种或许还能挽回。

"And that's why it's been interesting, because before, since surface areas are different, we would have all these dashboards, but it's harder to zoom out and go, okay, what's the overall theme of the experience?"

这也是它有意思的地方,因为以前各个界面不一样,我们摆了一堆仪表盘,却很难跳出来去看:好,这个体验的总体基调到底是什么?

"So to your point, we give high agency to each team — what we think constitutes a bad and what's a sad, and then what's the goal that each team wants to take."

所以正如你说的,我们给每个团队很高的 agency——由他们界定什么算 bad、什么算 sad,再定各团队想冲的目标。

"One of the main takeaways I'm hearing here is that one of the best tools for staying on top of quality is just monitoring and tests, versus spending more time reviewing."

我听到的一个主要收获是:把控质量最好的工具之一,其实就是监控和测试,而不是花更多时间去做代码评审。

"Which makes sense, because the speed is just impossible to stay on top of."

这很说得通,因为那个速度你根本盯不过来。

"And it almost speaks to this idea of closing the loop for agents to be able to figure things out themselves. They know what success looks like. Cool, we'll fix it ourselves."

这几乎呼应了那个理念:为 agent 闭环,让它们能自己把问题搞定。它们知道成功长什么样。行,那我们自己来修。

"So that's a really interesting takeaway — just invest more in the tests."

所以这是个很有意思的收获——就是在测试上多投入。

"Evals I imagine is part of this, and then just like monitoring failures and speed and things like that."

我猜 evals 也是其中一环,再加上监控故障、速度之类的东西。

"Something — I think this is public. I know that you guys have this dashboard that tracks just like F-words, like how often people are..."

有件事——我想这是公开的。我知道你们有个仪表盘,专门统计那些脏话,就是人们多频繁地……

"...because they're so pissed and frustrated. There's like a funny term for it, I think. I forget what it's called."

……因为他们气炸了、抓狂了。我记得它好像还有个好玩的名字,我忘了叫什么了。

"Yes. Actually, I remember, that was last September, because we were all seeing some frustrations."

对。其实我记得,那是去年九月的事,因为我们当时都感受到了一些挫败。

"And that was an engineer on the team of: hey, we should maybe track swear words. I'm like, oh, that's a great idea."

是团队里一位工程师提的:嘿,我们或许该统计一下骂人的词。我心想,哦,这主意太棒了。

"I remember it. I had just joined, and we were having that really fun conversation."

我还记得,我当时刚入职,我们聊得特别开心。

"And that's why Evals is hard too, because it's going back to that user experience and how we can make sure it's a delightful experience and less frustrating."

这也是为什么 Evals 同样很难,因为它又回到了用户体验上:我们怎么确保这是一次让人愉悦、少添堵的体验。

"But yeah, the swear word dashboard is a fun one."

不过没错,那个脏话仪表盘确实挺好玩的。

"Kind of going back to the way you operate and ways that you've figured out to work in this crazy new world that we're in."

我想回到你的工作方式上来,聊聊你在这个疯狂的新世界里摸索出的那些做法。

"I've heard about a couple things that you've implemented that are pretty unique, I think, to how teams operate and I think is something that has worked really well for you."

我听说你推行了几件事,在团队运作方式上挺独特的,而且对你来说效果非常好。

"One is making every manager start as an IC and then just every manager has to continue being an IC part-time, kind of this player coach approach."

其中一件,是让每个 manager 都先从 IC 干起,然后每个 manager 还得继续兼着一部分 IC 的活,有点像那种球员兼教练的打法。

"Talk about that, why that's so important in today's world."

聊聊这个吧,为什么它在今天这个世界里这么重要。

"It's funny, when I first joined, I noticed this whole theme of growth mindset."

说来有意思,我刚加入的时候,就注意到这里弥漫着一种 growth mindset 的氛围。

"It's just because the landscape is changing so fast."

原因很简单,整个格局变得太快了。

"Like what worked well before may not make sense, and even what makes sense today may need to change tomorrow, right?"

以前管用的东西,现在可能就讲不通了;就算今天讲得通,明天可能也得变,对吧?

"That's what I have to keep reminding myself."

这是我得不断提醒自己的事。

"So when I first joined, recruiters were like, 'Okay, yeah, we have these couple manager postings.'"

所以我刚来的时候,招聘的同事说:"好,我们这边有几个 manager 的岗位。"

"Actually how it came from like a listening tour I did with all the members on the team."

这其实是从我做的一轮"倾听之旅"里来的,我跟团队里所有成员都聊了一遍。

"And I heard a lot of these, 'Hey, I really appreciate the agency, but how can I make sure prioritization?'"

我听到很多这样的声音:"嘿,我很珍惜这种 agency,但怎么才能确保优先级排好?"

"And through that, there was some really good feedback too of making sure that it's not too many layers of reviews."

顺着这些,我还收到一条很好的反馈:要确保评审的层级别太多。

"When I actually think as a leader, if you actually start as IC first without a worry of supporting people — because that's a very heavy responsibility — before you have to take on that full responsibility, give yourself that maker time to actually type deep into the code and learn the code base, or the product, whatever it is."

我作为一个 leader 想,如果你真的先从 IC 干起,不用一上来就操心带人——那是一份很重的责任——在你扛起那份全责之前,先给自己一段 maker time,真正一头扎进代码里,把 code base 摸熟,或者把产品摸熟,反正不管是什么。

"Honestly, the PRs I do — it's more about for me it's important because it keeps me in the flow, because we're making so many changes to Cowork and Claude Code."

说实话,我自己提的那些 PR——对我来说更重要的是它让我保持在 flow 里,因为我们对 Cowork 和 Claude Code 的改动实在太多了。

"So even me doing PRs, it's less about what it is I'm fixing, it's more about me using the product every day just to keep that touch."

所以哪怕我去提 PR,重点也不在我修了什么,而在于我每天都在用这个产品,保持那份手感。

"As amazing as metrics and everything are — and I do look at those dashboards — if you as a leader are not living and breathing your product every day, you sometimes kind of lose touch and feel of the product."

指标这些东西再了不起——我也确实会看那些 dashboard——可你作为 leader,要是没有每天跟产品摸爬滚打,有时候就会丢掉对产品的那种触感和直觉。

"So on the manager front, I think giving time for managers that join to be able to go deep before supporting people."

所以在 manager 这一块,我觉得要给新加入的 manager 一段时间,让他们能先扎进去深入做事,再去带人。

"And then they actually end up building really great rapport with the team."

结果他们反而跟团队建立起了非常好的默契。

"Because if not, I think sometimes as managers, you might come and join a new team and you instantly think, 'I have to manage. Let me dig into my manager toolbox and do manager-y things.'"

因为不这样的话,我觉得 manager 有时候新加入一个团队,会立刻想:"我得开始管理了,让我打开我的管理工具箱,做点管理者该做的事。"

"But if you actually give yourself time to not have to worry about that first, and actually learn what it's like to be an engineer and teammate on the team — that also goes really far to building rapport."

但要是你真的先给自己一段时间,不必急着操心那些,而是去体会一下当团队里一名工程师、一名队友是什么感觉——这对建立默契也大有帮助。

"And in terms of using the product, I think that's interesting."

至于用自家产品这件事,我觉得挺有意思。

"Every team I've joined — across all the different products, it could be VR, it could be smart glasses, it was like Instagram — usually when I first joined, one comment that comes back to me is, 'Hey, you know what? I really love how you're actually using what we build.'"

我加入过的每一个团队——横跨各种各样的产品,可能是 VR,可能是智能眼镜,也可能是 Instagram——我刚进去的时候,常常会收到一句反馈:"嘿,你知道吗?我特别喜欢你真的在用我们做出来的东西。"

"'It's refreshing to see you giving user feedback.'"

"看到你给出用户反馈,真让人耳目一新。"

"And so I think as leaders too, it's also a way for us to experience the work personally that the team does."

所以我觉得,作为 leader,这也是我们亲身体会团队所做工作的一种方式。

"Something that people may not realize — you were overseeing an org of like 500 people at Meta before you moved to Anthropic, right?"

有件事大家可能没意识到——你在去 Anthropic 之前,在 Meta 管着一个大概 500 人的组织,对吧?

"And you moved to IC engineer basically at Anthropic from that."

然后你从那个位置,基本上是降到了 Anthropic 当一名 IC 工程师。

"I started out like that for a very short amount of time."

我一开始那样干了一小段时间,很短。

"Actually this was my journey between Microsoft and Meta too."

其实我在 Microsoft 和 Meta 之间的那段经历也是这样。

"At Meta, I interviewed as a manager, but at least for the first quarter, I was also an IC, because I really wanted to learn what it's like to be a Meta engineer."

在 Meta,我是以 manager 的身份面试进去的,但至少头一个季度,我同时也是个 IC,因为我特别想搞清楚当一名 Meta 工程师是什么感觉。

"Because before then I was at Microsoft, kind of cut my teeth on engineering at Microsoft, so I knew all the code bases, the tools, the languages."

因为在那之前我在 Microsoft,可以说是在 Microsoft 把工程这门手艺练出来的,所以那些 code base、工具、语言我都熟。

"But it was so valuable to have those first months actually learn what it's like to ship as a Meta engineer."

但头几个月真正去体会作为一名 Meta 工程师怎么发版,那段经历太有价值了。

"Plus it was also fun. I think sometimes we forget."

而且这件事还挺好玩的,我觉得我们有时候会忘了这一点。

"And that's by the way what I love about Claude Code, because the last time I shipped production software at Meta is probably 2017."

顺便说,这也是我喜欢 Claude Code 的地方,因为我上一次在 Meta 把生产环境的软件发上线,大概还是 2017 年。

"Every year I do a lot of dogfooding, and I also use dogfooding to help me with the quality of the product as well."

我每年都会做大量的 dogfooding,我也靠 dogfooding 来帮我把控产品质量。

"But it's been a very long time since I shipped production software, and part of it is I don't want to screw something up."

但我已经很久很久没真正发过生产环境的软件了,部分原因是我怕把什么搞砸。

"I'm always so scared of, what if I do something and then I cause a bug and then I'm not verifying properly, or am I wasting someone's time?"

我总是特别怕:万一我动了点什么,结果引入一个 bug,又没好好验证,或者是不是在浪费别人的时间?

"Because also the tool flows would change."

而且工具的流程也一直在变。

"But I remember that first week on Claude, at first I almost again did my usual, let me go meet all the engineers and treat them to coffee, and then I'm like, oh wait, wait, wait, let me ask Claude."

但我记得用 Claude 的头一周,起初我差点又走了老路子——让我去把工程师们都见一遍,请他们喝咖啡——然后我心想,哦等等等等,让我先问问 Claude。

"Claude was this really good onboarding buddy of mine, because I was curious about the code base, asking it questions."

Claude 成了我特别好的入职搭子,因为我对 code base 很好奇,就一直问它问题。

"And then it also really helped me do the automated test, but I also wanted to still do some manual testing."

它还实实在在帮我做了自动化测试,不过我还是想再做一些手动测试。

"And I asked Claude, hey, help me come up with a way for me to manually test this to make sure I cover all the cases."

于是我问 Claude:嘿,帮我想个办法手动测一下这个,确保我把所有情况都覆盖到。

"But all that then gives me confidence that okay, I can ship PRs again."

这一通下来,就给了我信心:好,我又能提 PR 了。

"And then I got kind of more comfortable with it again."

然后我就又慢慢找回了那种自如的感觉。

"And so I've actually had a lot of friends reach out to me that have been managers for a while, that's like, hey, I'm shipping code again thanks to Claude."

所以其实有不少当了很久 manager 的朋友找到我说:嘿,多亏了 Claude,我又开始写代码、发版了。

"But in general it's just important to me as leaders to make sure you're using the product that your team builds."

但总的来说,对我而言,作为 leader 很重要的一点就是:确保你在用自己团队做出来的产品。

"It's so interesting that you are overseeing the team as an eng leader that is most changing the role of an engineer."

有意思的是,你作为一名 eng leader 带着的这个团队,恰恰是最在改变工程师这个角色的团队。

"It's such a meta role. Like the work of an engineer is transforming because of the software that you're building."

这是个特别"套娃"的角色——工程师的工作,正因为你们在做的软件而被重塑。

"One question along these lines is just, do you worry about engineers' skills to code atrophying from not actually writing code anymore?"

沿着这条思路有个问题:你会担心工程师因为不再亲手写代码,编程能力就此退化吗?

"And does it even matter? Is this something you think about? Is it a big deal?"

而这到底要不要紧?这是你会去想的事吗?它是个大问题吗?

"It's interesting because we actually have this discussion on the team a bit. Like, are there things that we miss?"

挺有意思的,因为我们团队里其实也讨论过一阵:有没有什么是我们正在错过的?

"Actually to your point, I'm always thinking about when someone's onboarding and ramping."

其实正如你所说,我一直在琢磨有人入职、爬坡上手的那个阶段。

"Like you have Boris, who hand wrote the code in the early days and of course doesn't anymore, but he gained that knowledge from before because he was in the code base."

比如 Boris,早期是亲手敲代码的,现在当然不这么干了,但他之前的那些知识,是因为泡在 code base 里才积累下来的。

"So especially for all the engineers that join, I'm also like, make sure you're taking the time to, in all the work that you do, still get the understanding of the architecture or the change, because it goes back to that trust but verify."

所以尤其对所有新加入的工程师,我也会说:确保你花时间,在你做的每件事里,仍然去理解架构、理解这次改动,因为这又回到了那句"信任但要核实"。

"Maybe one day it won't matter anymore, but at the pace that we're going, I actually still think it's always double clicking on that layer that you depend on."

也许有一天这就无所谓了,但按我们现在这个速度,我其实仍然觉得,关键永远是去深挖你所依赖的那一层。

"Always take that time to learn about your dependencies, because this way when your dependencies change, you're kind of more aware."

永远花点时间去了解你的依赖项,这样当你的依赖发生变化时,你会更有觉察。

"Otherwise you might not be taking advantage of changes to dependencies. So I think it's always about doing that double click."

不然你可能就用不上依赖项更新带来的好处。所以我觉得,关键始终是去做那一层深挖。

"But the other thing that we found interesting on the Claude Code team is, after a while we felt it could start being a lonely experience, because we all started just working with our agent so much."

但我们在 Claude Code 团队还发现一件有意思的事:过了一阵,我们觉得这可能会变成一种孤独的体验,因为大家都开始太频繁地只跟自己的 agent 协作了。

"So recently we started a pairwise programming lunch."

所以最近我们搞了个结对编程午餐。

"Because what we also learned was, on Claude Code, everybody uses Claude Code and Cowork, everybody uses a flow so differently."

因为我们还发现,在 Claude Code 上,每个人用 Claude Code 和 Cowork 的方式、每个人的 flow 都太不一样了。

"And so we found that, wow, when we do pairwise programming, we actually learn so much from each other."

于是我们发现,哇,当我们结对编程的时候,真的能从彼此身上学到特别多东西。

"And then the other thing too is we make sure that we also have them make time together."

还有一件事,就是我们也会确保让大家凑出在一起的时间。

"So for example, hackathons is another thing we really like to do, just to make sure we're interacting together as a team."

比如说,黑客松就是我们很喜欢做的另一件事,就是为了确保我们作为一个团队还在彼此互动。

"That is such a good point. Just like the loneliness that emerges, because it used to be eng teams building code together."

这一点说得太好了。就是那种冒出来的孤独感——因为过去都是 eng 团队一起写代码。

"Someone's doing back end, someone's doing front end, someone's doing iOS app. Probably a bunch of people on the back end."

有人做后端,有人做前端,有人做 iOS app,后端那边大概还是一帮人。

"And I was like, you know, well, if 10 Claudes running in parallel doing all these things."

而我会想,你懂的,要是 10 个 Claude 并行跑着把这些活全干了呢。

"That is such a good idea of just finding ways to connect engineers."

想办法把工程师们重新连接起来,这个主意太棒了。

"So the idea here is like almost pair programming, but not. It's like parallel play when kids are growing up."

所以这里的思路有点像结对编程,但又不是;更像小孩成长过程中的那种"平行游戏"。

"Like, you're kind of working next to each other, but building your own things."

就是说,你们挨着彼此干活,但各自在做各自的东西。

"But even just watching how other people build is, your finding is, really valuable."

可哪怕只是看别人怎么搭东西——按你的发现——也非常有价值。

"Yeah, and it's because our own tool chain is changing so fast as well."

对,而且这也是因为我们自己的工具链同样在飞快地变。

"But yeah, it's very interesting to me that everybody on our team just uses Claude Code and Cowork in different ways."

不过确实,让我觉得很有意思的是,我们团队里每个人用 Claude Code 和 Cowork 的方式都各不相同。

"And so any time I watch someone work, then I learn something myself as well."

所以每次我看着别人干活,我自己也总能学到点什么。

"How do you manage people getting over like obsessed with optimizing their workflows?"

你怎么管那些过度痴迷于优化自己工作流的人?

"Is there anything you just say, 'Okay, it's fine. Just keep going.'"

你会不会干脆说一句:"行了,够了,接着干就是。"

"You know, I haven't seen too many folks on our team like that."

你懂的,我们团队里这样的人其实不多。

"I think everybody is just really excited about either like an architecture update that we think will be higher reliability or some product experience."

我觉得大家更多是真的很兴奋,要么是某个我们认为能提升可靠性的架构更新,要么是某种产品体验。

"So most folks, that's what we talked about a lot."

所以大多数人聊的也都是这些。

"It's fun lunchtime conversations, but I don't think we over-optimize, because there's no perfect answer actually."

这是很好玩的午餐话题,但我不觉得我们会过度优化,因为其实根本没有完美答案。

"These are really interesting insights. Just like as the role transformed, things come, things go."

这些观察真的很有意思。随着角色的转变,有些东西来了,有些东西走了。

"So I'm curious what else is kind of lost in this new world of software engineering."

所以我很好奇,在软件工程的这个新世界里,还有什么东西正在流失。

"I used to be an engineer. I don't know if you know this. I was an engineer for 10 years."

我以前是工程师,不知道你知不知道,我当了十年工程师。

"And it was like so fun just to sit there in flow coding. You know this feeling."

那种坐在那儿、进入 flow 写代码的感觉太爽了,你懂那种感觉。

"Just like, 'Oh, wow, it's working. Look at it compile. It's amazing. I'm making progress.'"

就那种"哇,跑通了,看它编译,太神奇了,我在往前推进"的感觉。

"And now it's like you don't do that anymore. You just sit there and kind of wait for agents to build the thing."

而现在你不再那样了,你只是坐在那儿,等着 agent 把东西搭出来。

"What else is kind of lost in this new world for engineers?"

对工程师来说,在这个新世界里还有什么东西正在流失?

"Yeah, it's so funny. I just had that conversation with an engineer on the team to talk about flow."

是啊,太巧了,我刚跟团队里一个工程师聊过 flow 这件事。

"Like, remember the old days, you have this really gnarly problem and you pop that music soundtrack in and then you're just in the zone."

就像,还记得过去吗,你碰到一个特别棘手的难题,放上一段音乐,然后整个人就进入了状态。

"And then there was always that big aha moment at the end."

而且最后总会有那个豁然开朗的瞬间。

"You remember, you finally cracked it, you know that, yay."

你记得的,你终于把它攻克了,就那种"耶"的感觉。

"So we do, but I think now we get a lot of joy from like the product."

这种快乐还在,但我觉得现在我们更多的快乐来自产品本身。

"But I do think there is, cuz I hear from other engineers as well, that some of the hardest parts is what I used to enjoy."

不过我确实觉得有失去的东西,因为我也听别的工程师说过,有些最难啃的部分,恰恰是我以前最享受的。

"I heard that from another engineer as well, and so I think we're all just kind of shifting."

这话我从另一个工程师那儿也听到过,所以我觉得我们都在某种转变之中。

"But the thing I see most, and that's why I was talking about the pair-wise programming in the hackathon, that did recently come up more — folks were starting to feel like it's starting to be a lonely experience."

但我感受最深的一点,也是我为什么会提到黑客松上的结对编程,最近被越来越多人提起——大家开始觉得,这正在变成一种孤独的体验。

"So interesting. Within Anthropic, I'm curious — engineering is like the most transformed I think of any role right now."

太有意思了。我很好奇,在 Anthropic 内部,工程师可能是当下转变最大的角色。

"What's like the second most transformed role so far would you say within Anthropic, that's most different from how it was like a couple years ago?"

那在 Anthropic 内部,你会说目前转变第二大的角色是哪个,跟两年前相比最不一样的?

"It's all the coding-adjacent roles are shifting."

是所有跟编码相邻的角色都在变。

"Like PM — I know you were chatting with Kai. I think PM is also transformed quite a bit, because PM bar no longer bottlenecked if they have an idea waiting on engineering bandwidth."

比如 PM,我知道你之前跟 Kai 聊过。我觉得 PM 这个角色也变了不少,因为 PM 一旦有了想法,不再卡在等工程资源这道坎上。

"So that's kind of like the next role I've seen shift."

所以这算是我看到的、下一个正在转变的角色。

"Actually our PMs have also helped us roll up sleeves and help ship some features, when there was something we wanted to do and an engineer wasn't able to."

实际上我们的 PM 也会卷起袖子帮我们一起干,帮着把一些功能做出来——当我们有想做的事、却腾不出工程师的时候。

"So I think it's all the coding-adjacent roles are starting to shift."

所以我觉得,所有跟编码相邻的角色都开始在变。

"But I think that's where again the verification is important, cuz when you have more different disciplines checking in, how do we make sure everybody has high confidence."

但我觉得这也正是验证变得重要的地方,因为当越来越多不同职能的人参与进来,我们怎么确保每个人都有足够的信心。

"I also think we need to do more to keep automating these other portions of the workflows."

我也觉得,我们需要做更多,把工作流里这些其他环节继续自动化。

"Like for sure we focus a lot on coding, but next when you think about like design or data science, those are starting to be the next areas I think are good opportunities for us."

我们当然在编码上投入了很多,但接下来,像设计或者数据科学,我觉得这些会是下一批很好的机会领域。

"To see how we can start and improving kind of like experiences there as well."

去看看我们能怎么着手、把那些地方的体验也改善起来。

"Yeah, speaking of data science, I have a data science friend and he was just saying how data science is so different now."

是啊,说到数据科学,我有个做数据科学的朋友,他就说现在的数据科学太不一样了。

"Where now most of their job is people doing their own like not amazing data science work using AI, and then just like showing it to the data scientist."

现在他们的工作大半是:别人用 AI 自己做出一些不怎么样的数据科学活儿,然后拿来给数据科学家看。

"'Here, here's the analysis I did. Can you just make sure it's right?' And half the time it's not right."

"喏,这是我做的分析,你能帮我确认一下对不对?"而一半的时候它都是错的。

"And so the job is just like a whole different job now, instead of doing the work that they thought they wanted to do."

于是这份工作现在完全变成了另一份工作,而不是去做他们当初以为自己想做的事。

"And that's like, 'All right, I'm just reviewing all this AI data science all the time. What the hell?'"

变成了"行吧,我现在就一天到晚审查这些 AI 做的数据科学,这都什么玩意儿?"

"Kind of along the lines, coming back to just how your team operates and how things are changing — what should an engineering manager expect from their team now versus like a couple years ago?"

顺着这个思路,回到你们团队怎么运转、things 在怎么变——现在一个工程经理对团队的预期,跟两年前相比应该有什么不同?

"What's like a normal baseline expectation of how things should work, other than just we're shipping faster? Is there anything else?"

除了"我们出活更快了",一个正常的基线预期应该是什么样?还有别的吗?

"Oh, interesting. Well, definitely I think most commits are Claude-assisted, and so that was a shift."

哦,有意思。嗯,可以肯定的是,我觉得现在大多数提交都是 Claude 辅助完成的,这就是一个转变。

"I kind of mentioned we have like Slack channels with all the feedback, and also our dashboards that we have get to Claude."

我前面也提过,我们有 Slack 频道汇集所有反馈,还有把数据接到 Claude 的仪表盘。

"I think having engineers keep building that stronger product sense muscle is also like another one, and that in general helps build these really strong-minded product engineers."

我觉得让工程师不断锤炼更强的产品感这块肌肉,也是其中之一,这总体上能培养出一批真正有主见的产品型工程师。

"I would say more of these roles that were traditionally non-engineering, you do now see engineers being like that."

我会说,越来越多过去属于非工程的角色,现在你确实能看到工程师把它们也担起来了。

"And sometimes you're just blocked by waiting for a cross-functional partner. I think there's less of those blocks now."

而且过去你常常会卡在等某个跨职能伙伴上,我觉得现在这类卡点变少了。

"Just because the models are able to augment additional capabilities that you may not have as an engineer."

就是因为模型能补足一些你作为工程师本来不具备的额外能力。

"So it's kind of interesting that it's both directions."

所以挺有意思的,这是双向发生的。

"Engineers becoming more product minded and responsible for the quality and success of a product, and then everybody becoming an engineer more and more."

工程师越来越有产品思维,要为一个产品的质量和成败负责;而与此同时,所有人也越来越变成工程师。

"Yeah, that's right. It's all blurring."

对,没错,一切都在变得模糊。

"I forget who said this, but there's this like, what is a role anymore — this guy said that it's like what's the average of what you do?"

我忘了是谁说的,但有这么个说法:在今天,所谓"角色"到底还是什么——这个人说,它差不多就是你所做之事的平均值。

"What's like the highest percentage of what you do, and that's kind of your role now, whatever it is going to be."

你所做的事里占比最高的那部分是什么,那大概就是你现在的角色,不管它将来会是什么。

"Oh man, I want to come back to your point about obsession with the product, living, breathing the product, dogfooding."

天呐,我想回到你之前讲的那一点——对产品的痴迷,活在产品里、呼吸产品、dogfooding。

"I talked to a bunch of people that work with you about you, and that's the thing that came up most—just your obsession with living and breathing the product, using the product constantly, whatever it is you're building, this idea of dogfooding."

我跟一群和你共事过的人聊了聊你,他们提得最多的就是这一点——你对活在产品里、呼吸产品的那种痴迷,不管你在做什么,都在不停地用自己的产品,也就是 dogfooding 这件事。

"Talk about why that is so important, why that's something you instill within your teams and reports."

聊聊为什么这件事这么重要,为什么你要把它灌输给你的团队和下属。

"Oh, I love it."

哦,我太喜欢这个话题了。

"Yeah, this has worked for me—it's just been a really good way for me to keep a pulse on things."

是的,这套做法对我一直很管用——它是我感知产品脉搏的一个特别好的方式。

"Anytime you build product, there's a dream—you're really hoping to enable an experience or make an experience better."

每次你做产品,心里都有一个愿景——你真心希望能成全某种体验,或者把某种体验做得更好。

"So being able to do that helps me keep really close to the pulse."

所以能亲自去用,让我能紧贴着产品的脉搏。

"Maybe for sure on Visual Studio, that was where I got this love of it."

这份热爱大概最早是在 Visual Studio 那会儿培养起来的。

"But it's interesting, because even Marketplace—even after I left the team, once in a while I'd still do it."

但有意思的是,就连 Marketplace 也是——哪怕我离开那个团队之后,我偶尔还是会去用。

"One time I had a MacBook Air and I wanted to sell my old one, and I hadn't sold anything on Marketplace in a while."

有一次我有台 MacBook Air,想把旧的那台卖掉,而我已经有阵子没在 Marketplace 上卖过东西了。

"And I could not believe it—the minute I put it up for sale, a buyer tried to scam me, and it was an interesting new scam vector I didn't detect."

我简直不敢相信——我刚把它挂出来,就有个买家想骗我,而且那是一种我没识别出来的新型骗术。

"But that goes to show again, people will use your products in ways that you may not expect."

但这又一次说明,人们用你产品的方式,常常超出你的预料。

"And so especially as leaders, or even anyone on the team, we all have different lives."

所以尤其作为 leader,甚至团队里的任何人,我们每个人的生活都不一样。

"It's funny, when I was supporting the VR and AR teams, somehow the way I used VR, the setup, I would always be able to find these really weird floor height issues."

说来好笑,我支持 VR 和 AR 团队那会儿,不知为什么,以我用 VR 的方式、我那套环境配置,我总能发现一些特别诡异的地面高度问题。

"So that ended up being—I took it on, like 'I'm going to help us,' because somehow I had a good repro environment."

于是那后来就成了——我把它揽了下来,心想"我来帮大家",因为不知怎么的,我手头正好有个能稳定复现问题的环境。

"So number one, that's how you keep your pulse on the product that you're building, and don't get too lost in metrics and dashboards only, or presentations."

所以第一点,这就是你保持对自己所做产品的感知的方式,别只迷失在指标、dashboard 或者一堆 PPT 里。

"I think that's such an important point you're saying there that I just want to make sure people hear."

我觉得你说的这一点特别重要,我想确保大家都听进去了。

"There's always this idea of anecdotal evidence and examples versus the data."

总有一个老话题——轶事性的证据、个别例子,对上数据。

"And what you're saying here is, as a product leader, as an eng leader, you found a lot of success in the anecdotes, the specific little one-offs that you experience as a user, versus obsessing with the data only."

而你在这里说的是,作为产品 leader、作为 eng leader,你恰恰是从那些轶事里——从你作为用户亲历的那些具体的、零星的小事里——收获了很多,而不是只盯着数据。

"Yeah. And actually, sometimes it's also how I've been able to most effectively help the team."

对。而且说实话,有时候这也正是我能最有效地帮到团队的方式。

"So for example, the last team I was on, I was leading a VR team, and I had not checked in any code into that code base, just because I was really worried about messing up the operating system."

举个例子,我上一个团队是带 VR 团队,我从没往那个 code base 里提交过任何代码,纯粹是因为我特别怕把操作系统搞坏。

"But what was a gap? We were doing a lot of polish fixes, and I said, 'Hey, you know what? I'll use my dogfooding time to actually vet how the experience looks.'"

但当时缺口在哪?我们当时在做大量打磨性的修复,我就说:"嘿,这样吧,我用我的 dogfooding 时间来实地检验体验到底怎么样。"

"And so that was also probably a way that I felt I could still meaningfully contribute to help hold the quality bar for the team."

所以那大概也是一种让我觉得自己仍能实打实地出力、帮团队守住质量底线的方式。

"And every team member usually always really appreciates it, because as a leader, you're supporting folks on the team who, outside of metrics and everything, everybody really wants to make sure their work matters."

而且团队里每个人通常都特别领情,因为作为 leader,你支持的这些人,抛开指标这些不谈,每个人其实都很在意自己的工作是不是有意义。

"Just making sure that leaders use your product—I think folks feel the leaders remain really engaged and not too removed."

就单是让 leader 也用你的产品这件事——我觉得大家会感到 leader 是真的投入其中、没有太疏离。

"And this connects a lot with your point that engineers need to become more product minded, that engineers need to become more PM-y, and PMs need to become more engineering minded."

这跟你之前的观点联系很紧——工程师需要变得更有产品思维,工程师要更像 PM,而 PM 也要更懂工程。

"But this is, as an engineer, one way to do it: use the product constantly."

但作为工程师,这就是其中一个办法:不停地用自己的产品。

"And that'll help you understand what is missing in the product as a user, because you're just using it."

而这能帮你以用户的身份看清产品还缺什么,因为你本来就在用它。

"That's right. And I would say if you're leading a team where it's really hard for you to use the product, then meet with customers."

没错。我还想说,如果你带的团队让你很难亲自去用产品,那就去见客户。

"Whatever the other avenue is—I think that's also been really important."

不管那条替代路径是什么——我觉得这一点同样非常重要。

"Every time I've done customer visits, I always learn something new."

每次我做客户拜访,总能学到新东西。

"I remember that was Facebook Marketplace—we were trying to launch to Latin America, so we were testing in Chile."

我记得那是 Facebook Marketplace——我们当时想把它推到拉丁美洲,所以在智利做测试。

"And I remember it just wasn't doing as well as the other regions we'd done, and everything else we'd tried."

我记得它的表现就是不如我们做过的其他地区,我们试了别的各种办法也不行。

"And then we had a really small research trip where I went to Chile—I remember getting a whole bunch of Android phones for us."

后来我们做了一次规模很小的调研出差,我去了智利——我记得给我们弄了一大堆 Android 手机。

"It was a very small crew, like just three of us."

就一支很小的队伍,大概就我们三个人。

"And upon landing and opening up these Android phones, I'm like, ah—the LTE connection was much slower than what we were used to in the US."

一落地、一打开这些 Android 手机,我就发现——那里的 LTE 连接比我们在美国习惯的速度慢太多了。

"And so I'm like, oh, the Marketplace feed didn't even load very well on these little LTE situations."

于是我心想,哦,在这种弱 LTE 环境下,Marketplace 的信息流连加载都加载不好。

"What a growth blocker—you can't even load."

这是多大的一个增长拦路虎啊——你连页面都加载不出来。

"But again, that's why it's so important to always listen to customer feedback and get that fast feedback loop."

但这又一次说明,为什么始终倾听客户反馈、建立起那条快速反馈循环如此重要。

"I think it was Jeff Bezos that said, if you have the data and you have an anecdote, trust the anecdote over the data. Surprisingly."

我记得是 Jeff Bezos 说过,如果你既有数据又有一桩轶事,那就信轶事,别信数据。挺出人意料的。

"And that's a great example. Okay, just a couple more questions."

而你这就是个绝佳的例子。好,再问几个问题。

"One is, in your talk you had this really interesting slide at the end of what questions you're rethinking right now that you haven't figured out how to solve, with how much is changing."

第一个是,你的演讲最后有一页特别有意思的幻灯片,讲的是在变化这么剧烈的当下,你正在重新思考、却还没想明白怎么解的那些问题。

"I'm going to read the three—I'm curious if it's still these three, or if there's anything else, current problems we need to figure out that we haven't solved in how we operate."

我把那三个念一遍——我很好奇是不是还是这三个,或者有没有别的,就是我们运作方式上还没解决、需要搞定的当下难题。

"What you shared in your talk was: do we still need separate iOS and Android orgs? How far do you push fully automated reviews? And with role blurring, how do you ensure everyone's equally productive?"

你在演讲里分享的是:我们还需不需要把 iOS 和 Android 拆成两个独立的组织?全自动审查到底要推进到多远?以及在角色边界日益模糊的情况下,你怎么确保每个人的产出都同样高?

"Still problems? Is there anything else that you're thinking about, like, okay, we need to crack this, we haven't figured this out?"

这些现在还是难题吗?还有没有别的让你觉得"好,这个我们得攻克,我们还没想明白"的事?

"You know, the iOS Android one—it's funny, because I speak of deep expertise."

你知道,iOS 和 Android 那一个——挺好玩的,因为我老是强调深度专长。

"We definitely feel that it's really important to still bring on folks with that expertise, but we probably don't need as large, because people are flexing."

我们确实觉得,继续招进有这种专长的人非常重要,但规模大概不需要那么大了,因为大家都在灵活地跨界做事。

"So it's again making sure we have the Android and iOS experts, but then less of a larger kind of mobile org, one per platform."

所以还是那句话,要确保我们有 Android 和 iOS 的专家,但不再是那种很大的、每个平台一套的 mobile 组织。

"And so again, that's still a balance that we're trying to figure out: do we have the right and enough expertise?"

所以还是那个我们仍在摸索的平衡:我们的专长是不是对路、够不够?

"The second one was—sorry, what was the second one?"

第二个是——抱歉,第二个是什么来着?

"Oh, yeah. It is, how far do you push fully automated reviews?"

哦,对。是这个——全自动审查到底要推进到多远?

"Ah, yes. Actually, this is a fun one, like with the content design check."

啊,对。其实这个挺有意思的,比如内容设计的检查。

"I think across all of it, we're looking for: how do you actually get what good looks like?"

我觉得贯穿这一切,我们要找的是:你到底怎么定义、怎么拿到"好的样子"?

"Verification is still one that—I think that's kind of like the second and the third, where there are a lot more opportunities there for us."

验证仍然是其中一个难点——我觉得第二个和第三个都属于这一类,在这上面我们还有大把可做的空间。

"But the how far to push—I think it's looking at where we think experts still matter, and then also keep asking ourselves, okay, is there a way to leverage our expertise to also automate?"

但"要推进到多远"这件事——我觉得关键是看清楚我们认为哪些地方专家依然不可或缺,然后再不断追问自己:好,有没有办法借助我们的专长去顺带把它自动化?

"Looking across the whole end-to-end experience, making sure we're not missing things—I think we come at it from an engineering standpoint, but making sure we think about those other areas like experience."

从头到尾审视整个端到端体验,确保我们没有遗漏——我觉得我们往往是从工程的视角切入的,但要确保我们也考虑到体验这些别的方面。

"I think there's definitely still more that we can do there."

我觉得在这上面我们肯定还有更多可以做的。

"Basically, how do you set up a verification that the experience is what you want it to be?"

说到底,你怎么搭建一套验证机制,来确认体验就是你想要的那个样子?

"Exactly. And I think that one is still a hard one to crack, because you kind of mentioned the eval cases."

完全正确。而我觉得这个仍然很难攻克,因为你刚才也提到了 eval 用例。

"Some of it for sure is accuracy, but it's also the experience."

其中一部分当然是准确性,但同样也关乎体验。

"So that's something that, yeah, we're still kind of thinking through."

所以这个嘛,是的,我们还在慢慢想透它。

"Awesome."

太好了。

"Is there anything else that's like, this has changed recently, we got to figure out how to rethink the way we operate, or is this kind of the big ones?"

还有别的吗?就是那种最近变了、逼着我们重新想该怎么干活的事?还是说这些就是最主要的几件了?

"You know, I think because with routines and everything being more async, I think there is starting to be a high load on our context switching."

你懂的,我觉得因为有了 routine、什么都变得更 async,我们在上下文切换上的负担开始变得很重。

"Cuz I even remember I myself was like, oh, I kicked off like — and so I think that's probably another thing we have to think about."

因为我自己都记得有那种时刻——啊,我刚启动了个任务——所以我觉得这大概是我们得想的另一件事。

"Whether for our team members or our users, like how can we actually make the experience better to reduce that load, cuz I do see the context switching load increasing."

不管是对我们团队成员还是用户,我们到底怎么把体验做得更好、把这个负担降下来,因为我确实看到上下文切换的负担在涨。

"If you have 20 agents running, there's just endless checking in and reviewing, and you have to remember what you're doing there."

如果你同时跑着 20 个 agent,就有看不完的检查和 review,你还得记住自己在每个里头干到哪了。

"It's like such an interesting world where, like the idea flow we talked about before — engineers and most people, there's less of the just hours of flow, but now the agents can kind of just remind you."

这真是个很有意思的世界,就像我们之前聊的 idea flow——工程师和大多数人,纯粹连续几个小时进入 flow 的时间变少了,但现在 agent 能反过来提醒你。

"Here's where you're at — the reset to switch almost is easier cuz you don't have to relearn everything."

告诉你现在进展到哪了——重启切换反而几乎更容易了,因为你不用把所有东西重新学一遍。

"You don't have to re-understand the code base and the architecture."

你不用重新搞懂整个 code base 和架构。

"You can kind of just like, okay, but here's what we're trying to do."

你差不多就能说,好,我们现在想做的是这个。

"It's kind of like both got better, got worse."

所以这事算是又变好了、又变糟了。

"Well, it's interesting cuz I used to book out focus time for, you know, the focus time for coding, cuz you want that dedicated."

挺有意思的,因为我以前会专门排出 focus time 来写代码,你懂的,你想要那段不被打扰的时间。

"And then the whole context switching — and it's interesting now that because I can context switch more with more async agents, I'm noticing I do actually have to go back and block a focus time for me to catch up on all the different async work that I've kicked off."

然后是整套上下文切换——有意思的是,现在因为有更多 async agent、我能更频繁地切换上下文,我发现我反而得回头专门排一段 focus time,来追上我自己启动的那一堆 async 工作。

"Yeah, do you have any thoughts on a solution there, cuz that's hard?"

是啊,这块你有什么解法的想法吗?这挺难的。

"Just like there's people just want to do more and more, and just how do you do that without constantly context switching?"

就是大家总想做得越来越多,那你怎么在不停切上下文的前提下做到这一点?

"It's really hard and annoying."

真的又难又烦人。

"Yes. I agree. Like definitely I haven't cracked it yet."

对,我同意。我确实还没破解这个难题。

"So interesting. Okay, there's a question I, as we were talking, that I'm so excited to hear your answer on."

太有意思了。好,我们聊着聊着冒出来一个问题,我特别想听你的回答。

"I wasn't even planning to ask this, but it's so important these days, which is just like jobs and hiring."

我本来都没打算问这个,但它在当下太重要了,就是工作和招聘。

"So interesting that you would think AI would make engineers less necessary."

很有意思的是,你会以为 AI 会让工程师变得没那么必要。

"On the other hand, it feels like you guys are hiring engineers like crazy."

但另一方面,感觉你们在疯狂招工程师。

"OpenAI's hiring engineers like crazy. Just like there's so much demand for engineers."

OpenAI 也在疯狂招工程师。对工程师的需求就是这么大。

"Where do you think this goes? What do you think about just the future of the eng role?"

你觉得这会走向哪?你怎么看工程师这个角色的未来?

"And this is a big question, but just — thoughts."

这是个大问题,不过就——随便说说你的想法。

"I'll actually share some vulnerability here."

我其实在这里坦白一点脆弱的东西。

"One, speaking of big open questions, I really do think how we grow the next generation, just because how you and me got to our engineering path is just so different."

第一,说到这种没有答案的大问题,我真的很在意我们怎么培养下一代,因为你和我走上工程之路的方式,跟现在太不一样了。

"It's almost like, okay, now when you graduate from school, it's like how do you kind of fast-forward it?"

就好像,好,现在你从学校毕业,该怎么把这段路快进?

"But the important thing to me is that they still understand, you know, that double-click I talked about, to the layer of an eight."

但对我来说重要的是,他们还是得懂我之前说的那种「往下钻一层」,一直钻到底层。

"That is a big question I have, and I wish I had the answers."

这是我心里的一个大问号,我真希望我有答案。

"But I wonder if, for software engineering, it's almost like you go more towards a fellowship or apprenticeship program."

但我在想,对软件工程来说,会不会更像是走向一种 fellowship 或者师徒制的模式。

"I know it's hard cuz technically we have internships, but those were the kind of like 3 months and a little projects."

我知道这很难,因为严格说我们有实习,但那种就是三个月、做点小项目。

"And I wish I had a crystal ball here, but it's like, how do you almost cram in some of the — and maybe it won't matter — but some of the life experiences that we all got?"

我真希望这里有个水晶球能预知未来,但问题是,你怎么把我们都经历过的那些——也许它根本不重要——但那些人生历练,硬塞进去?

"How do you actually enable us to kind of teach that to the next generation of builders?"

你到底怎么让我们能把这些教给下一代的 builder?

"Right, like if you don't have to ever look at code, what's the incentive for a new software engineer to truly understand how infrastructure works and memory allocation, all these things that are kind of foundational?"

对,就像如果你压根不用看代码,那对一个新工程师来说,真正搞懂基础设施怎么运转、内存怎么分配这些底层东西,动力又从哪来?

"And it's interesting. Maybe the models will get good enough that it doesn't matter, but I do —"

这挺有意思的。也许模型会好到这一切都无所谓了,但我确实——

"You know, but I do think there's something about that double-click, cuz I think that's where there might be an opportunity to improve the product or the system."

你懂的,但我确实觉得那种「往下钻一层」是有价值的,因为我认为改进产品或系统的机会往往就藏在那里。

"But figuring out how to learn that, not necessarily by years of typing code."

但要想清楚怎么学会那个,不一定非得靠好多年的敲代码。

"Yeah, like somebody's got to understand code at some level."

是啊,总得有人在某种程度上懂代码。

"Like it's like some COBOL engineer they have to pull out of retirement one day like, 'Do you remember how to write Python?'"

就像哪天得把某个 COBOL 工程师从退休里拽回来:「你还记得怎么写 Python 吗?」

"You know what was really fun? One of my previous managers — I mean, he started software engineering when it was punch cards."

你知道什么特别好玩吗?我以前的一位经理——我是说,他入行做软件工程那会儿还是打孔卡的年代。

"And it's so fabulous. Like, he's been messaging me everything he's been building with Claude Code."

这太棒了。他一直在给我发消息,讲他用 Claude Code 做出来的各种东西。

"And I'm like, 'Wow, what a career,' that you go from — he's really kind of seen this whole change."

我就想,哇,这是怎样的一段职业生涯,从那个年代一路走来——他是真真切切地见证了这整场变革。

"So maybe I think for us to think about it is, like when I think about his career, how he got started with punch cards was also totally different than now."

所以也许我们可以这样想,当我回看他的职业生涯,他当年用打孔卡起步的方式,跟现在也是完全不一样的。

"And so it might be that I think it'll be interesting for us to see what remains important, and then what changes in terms of importance."

所以也许我觉得有意思的是去看,什么东西会一直重要,而什么东西的重要性会发生变化。

"I have a theory, maybe, that what is important will shift over time, and then how do you kind of build the proficiency into it."

我有个理论,也许重要的东西会随时间迁移,那接下来的问题就是你怎么在新的重点上把功力练出来。

"Oh yeah, just learn the things that really matter."

对啊,就去学那些真正要紧的东西。

"Like, the argument that I constantly hear is just like it's a new level of abstraction, just like assembly and binary — it just keeps going up and up."

我常听到的一种说法是,这就是一层新的抽象,跟汇编和二进制一样——它就是一层层往上叠。

"And now, okay, we don't need to actually look at the code."

到现在,好,我们不用真的去看代码了。

"It's like a new layer of abstraction — prompts and Claude's thinking messages."

这就像又一层新的抽象——prompt,还有 Claude 的思考消息。

"Yeah, and it's maybe like, 'Okay, what is an interesting problem? What's the prioritization for experience to build?'"

对,也许就变成,好,什么才是一个有意思的问题?该优先去积累什么经验?

"And then when you build things, how do you know it's actually resonating and doing what you intended?"

然后当你做出东西来,你怎么知道它真的打动了人、真的在做你想让它做的事?

"And is good, yeah. Like, are we just building a bunch of slop here, or is this actually architecture that will work?"

而且做得好,对。比如,我们到底是在堆一堆烂活,还是真的在搭一套能跑起来的架构?

"I think the advantage though for young people is it's so much easier to just lean in and work in this new way versus being stuck in the way that things used to be."

不过我觉得年轻人的优势在于,直接全身心投入、用这种新方式干活,要比困在过去那套老办法里容易得多。

"It's amazing how many long-time engineers like yourself have adapted and embraced this."

像你这样的资深工程师里,有这么多人适应并拥抱了它,这真的很了不起。

"It's so hard to just change everything. Okay, let's do it. Everything."

把一切都推倒重来太难了。好,那就来吧。全部。

"Well, cuz the rate of change is also so fast."

嗯,因为变化的速度也实在太快了。

"Actually, that was the one thing — I remember the first time, it was probably Sonnet 3.5 or 3.6, and I remember it was still making some mistakes when I was doing things on the side."

其实有一件事我记得很清楚——第一次大概是 Sonnet 3.5 还是 3.6,我记得它在我顺手做点东西时还会出些错。

"I'm like, 'What are you doing?'"

我心想,你在干嘛呢?

"And then what I noticed was some of the engineers that were resisting AI tooling, they're like, 'Ah, but see, look at all of these.'"

然后我注意到,有些抗拒 AI 工具的工程师会说:「啊,你看吧,瞧瞧这一堆错。」

"But then I think it was hard to understand the exponential rate of improvements."

但我觉得他们很难理解那种指数级的改进速度。

"And maybe that's another interesting thing that I myself am learning too."

也许这是另一件我自己也在学的有意思的事。

"Like there might have been something I tried to automate that Claude wasn't quite good enough at, and then actually in the next model, oh well, now it is good enough."

比如我可能试过去自动化某件事,当时 Claude 还不太够格,结果到了下一代模型,诶,现在就够了。

"So it's always also thinking about what may have not worked — like it might be worth the time to revisit, cuz that now might be a new capability."

所以还得时刻想着那些曾经没成的事——也许值得花时间回头再试一次,因为它现在可能已经成了一项新能力。

"Yeah, that comes up a lot in this podcast."

是啊,这个点在这档播客里反复出现。

"Just build something that is almost working, that is at the edge, because once the model gets there, you'll be so far ahead of everybody else."

就去做一个差一点就能跑通、处在能力边缘的东西,因为一旦模型追上来,你就已经遥遥领先于所有人了。

"Okay, final question. You may have already answered this with what you just said, but what keeps you up at night?"

好,最后一个问题。你刚才说的可能已经回答了一部分,但还是想问:什么会让你夜里睡不着?

"You know, the thing that keeps me up at night is probably how we — so, you know, we talked about Claude Code and Cowork team culture."

你懂的,真正让我夜不能寐的,大概是我们怎么去——你知道,我们前面聊过 Claude Code 和 Cowork 的团队文化。

"That team culture is really important to me, like the one-team mentality, and I share that with folks."

那种团队文化对我太重要了,就是那种「一个团队」的心态,我也常跟大家讲这件事。

"And by the way, culture is like a living, breathing thing. It's not just a poster you slap on a wall, and it changes over time."

顺便说一句,文化是活的、会呼吸的东西。它不是你往墙上一贴的海报,它会随时间变化。

"It shows up in how we treat each other, how we're there for each other."

它体现在我们怎么对待彼此、怎么在关键时刻撑住对方。

"And so the culture of the team is important to me because we are growing, and since the culture shifts, making sure we maintain the things that are important matters."

所以团队文化对我很重要,因为我们在成长,而文化会漂移,守住那些真正要紧的东西就格外关键。

"It's really important for me to have diverse perspectives, so then we can have good, healthy, open, honest debates in the open — and we welcome those."

对我来说,拥有多元的视角非常重要,这样我们才能在台面上展开健康、坦诚、公开的辩论——而且我们欢迎这种辩论。

"That's what I call the one-team mentality: when you get close to the finish line, look behind you and see if there's some of our team to help, because we finish as a team."

这就是我说的「一个团队」心态:当你快冲到终点时,回头看看,是不是还有队友需要拉一把,因为我们是作为一个团队冲线的。

"That's probably the thing that keeps me up at night."

这大概就是让我夜不能寐的那件事。

"There's so many other hard problems, but I think a lot of the other ones are product or engineering challenges, where yes, we have dashboards or theories or hypotheses."

还有很多其他难题,但我觉得大多数其实是产品或工程上的挑战——这些至少还有 dashboard、有理论、有假设可以依靠。

"But the culture is a human aspect, and that's the one I always want to make sure that, as we grow, we still maintain — because it's the fiber of the team."

但文化是关乎人的那一面,这正是我始终想确保的:即使我们在扩张,也要把它守住,因为它是团队的肌理。

"When it starts drifting, I'm always worried — if it drifts, are we catching it and having conversations as a team to make sure we all want the culture to grow in the right direction?"

一旦它开始漂移,我就会担心——它真漂了,我们能不能及时察觉,然后作为一个团队坐下来谈,确保大家都希望文化朝对的方向长?

"Yeah, I imagine everybody is struggling with this, considering the pace of change and the pace of hiring — especially a company like Anthropic that's on the most unprecedented growth trajectory in history."

是啊,我猜每个人都在为这件事头疼,考虑到变化的速度和招人的速度——尤其是像 Anthropic 这样,正走在史上最前所未有的增长曲线上的公司。

"I could see how that could be a challenge with so much change."

我能想象,在如此剧烈的变化之下,这会有多难。

"Even at Airbnb when I was there, that was quite a growth trajectory, and that was nothing like what you guys are going through."

就算是我当年在 Airbnb 的时候,那也是一条相当陡的增长曲线了,可跟你们现在经历的根本没法比。

"And that was a constant topic of conversation: how do we maintain the culture?"

而那时候有一个反复被讨论的话题:我们怎么守住文化?

"Actually, I'm curious — what was your experience at Airbnb maintaining the culture as you were growing?"

其实我挺好奇的——你在 Airbnb 一边成长一边守文化,是怎样的体验?

"One thing that worked well is the founders being obsessed with it — every all-hands, every big meeting was just reminding everyone of the culture and the values and what the values are."

一个很管用的做法是创始人对它近乎痴迷——每一次全员会、每一场大会,都在不停地重申文化、重申价值观、重申这些价值观到底是什么。

"The founders top-down being obsessed with it was a really big part of it. You just couldn't have a meeting without that coming up."

创始人自上而下地对它痴迷,是其中非常关键的一环。你几乎开不了一个不提到它的会。

"The other is a memory I always come back to: we had Sheryl Sandberg, then at Meta, come do a fireside chat, and somebody asked her, how do you maintain culture as you scale?"

另一个是我总会回想起的画面:我们请了当时在 Meta 的 Sheryl Sandberg 来做炉边对谈,有人问她,在规模化的过程中你们是怎么守住文化的?

"Because we're going so fast, and it's so hard to deal with all this change and all these new people."

因为我们跑得太快了,要应付这么多变化、这么多新人,实在太难了。

"And her advice was: this is actually the problem you want to have, because this means you're growing and doing well, and this is normal."

她的建议是:这其实是你巴不得拥有的烦恼,因为它意味着你在成长、在向好,这很正常。

"Versus — nothing will change if you're doing badly. That's a so much worse situation, when you're not growing and you're not hiring like crazy."

反过来——如果你做得很糟,那才什么都不会变。那是糟糕得多的处境:你不增长,也不疯狂招人。

"That's a much worse situation that will cause even more suffering. So this is a good problem you're dealing with — her advice, which has always stuck with me."

那才是糟糕得多、会带来更多痛苦的处境。所以你眼下面对的,是个好问题——她这句话我一直记到现在。

"Oh, that's great. It's interesting — one of the important things for the Claude Code and Cowork team, whether ICs or managers, and this is a thing I especially ask of managers, is that we all talk about what's going well, but also be open about what's not going well."

哦,这太好了。挺有意思的——对 Claude Code 和 Cowork 团队来说,无论是 IC 还是管理者,有一件我尤其会要求管理者做到的重要事情:我们既要聊进展顺利的部分,也要坦白说出哪里不顺。

"Because then, if we can actually have a conversation about what's not going well, that's how we can go ahead and address it."

因为只有这样,如果我们真能把不顺的地方摊开来谈,我们才有办法去解决它。

"Speaking of what keeps me up at night, my nightmare is, especially if someone's in a manager position, I'm like, hey, how are things going? Everything's fine."

说到让我夜不能寐的事,我的噩梦是:尤其当某人身处管理岗位,我问一句「嘿,最近怎么样?」,对方说「一切都好」。

"And I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm not doing fine — I know things are not, and it's that whole, you know how there was this meme of the doctor cat with a cup of coffee in a room that's on fire? This is like that. That is my nightmare."

我心里就想,天哪,我可不好——我知道事情不对劲,就是那种感觉,你知道那个表情包吧,一只狗端着咖啡坐在着火的房间里说「一切安好」?就是那个样子。那就是我的噩梦。

"So that's actually a discussion I have with a lot of folks on the team, especially managers when they first join: hey, let's always have these open conversations so that we can solve problems together."

所以这其实是我会跟团队里很多人谈的事,尤其是管理者刚加入时:嘿,我们要一直保持这种坦诚的对话,这样才能一起把问题解决掉。

"I imagine that's something a lot of people struggle with — seeing so many people around them doing super well, at least seemingly doing well."

我想这是很多人都会挣扎的地方——眼看身边那么多人都做得超级好,至少表面上看起来很好。

"Everything's going great, I'm growing this awesome company — it's hard to actually be honest and say, it's not going great, I'm struggling here, I'm falling behind."

一切都很顺,我在做一家了不起的公司——这种氛围下,你很难真的诚实地说出口:其实不太顺,我在硬撑,我有点掉队了。

"Because everyone around you is, on the surface, feeling like they're killing it."

因为你身边的每个人,表面上看都像是混得风生水起。

"Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else you want to leave listeners with — anything we didn't cover, anything important you wanted to share?"

在进入我们超级精彩的快问快答之前,你还有什么想留给听众的话吗——有没有我们没聊到、但你很想分享的重要内容?

"Maybe one thing, just a suggestion — we talked about how Claude can automate things, but one other thing that's really big on the Claude Code and Cowork team culture is explicit permission to kill processes that no longer serve us."

也许有一件事吧,算是个建议——我们聊过 Claude 能怎么帮你自动化,但 Claude Code 和 Cowork 团队文化里还有一条特别重要:我们明确地授权大家去砍掉那些不再对我们有用的流程。

"So maybe a suggestion is, for anyone on your team or leading teams: take what's one process that you either dread doing, or is really noisy, or is really expensive, or is just very manual."

所以我的建议是,对你团队里的任何人、或是带团队的人:挑出一个你一想到就发怵、或是特别嘈杂、或是成本特别高、或者纯粹特别费手工的流程。

"Pick one thing, and first ask: is it still having its purpose?"

就挑一件,然后先问一句:它现在还有存在的意义吗?

"For example, even our planning — that was actually my own big first learning when I first joined Claude Code."

比方说,连我们的规划也算——这其实是我刚加入 Claude Code 时,自己上的第一堂大课。

"I'm like, hey, maybe we should do a six-month roadmap doc, but we're going to do it super lightweight, because I don't want to waste a lot of time planning — and I felt we did a really lightweight process."

我当时想,嘿,也许我们该写一份半年期的路线图文档,但要做得超级轻量,因为我不想在规划上浪费太多时间——我也觉得我们那套流程确实够轻。

"But that was such a good learning for me, because the exercise was good to kickstart conversations and ensure we're aligned."

但这对我是一次很好的学习,因为这个练习本身很适合用来启动对话、确保大家对齐。

"But three months in, I'm like, wait, have we still referenced it? Because so much has changed."

可三个月过去,我就想,等等,我们还有再翻过它吗?因为变化实在太多了。

"And that was something I changed — that I myself brought in, thinking hey, maybe this will help."

于是这也成了我亲手砍掉的东西——而它当初正是我自己引进来的,本以为「嘿,这也许会有帮助」。

"So always be open to learning, and always ask yourself: whatever process you have, is it still serving its purpose? Just because the field is changing so fast."

所以永远对学习保持开放,永远问自己:不管你手上是什么流程,它还在发挥它该有的作用吗?毕竟这个领域变化得太快了。

"I love that advice."

我太喜欢这个建议了。

"I got to follow up on this real quick."

我得赶紧追问一下。

"So, what is it? How do you think about planning now?"

所以,现在到底是怎么回事?你现在是怎么看待规划的?

"Do you do any planning? Is it just like a month-long road map?"

你们还做规划吗?是不是就一份一个月的路线图?

"What's kind of like the simple way to explain where you're at with that?"

用最简单的话说,你们现在在这件事上做到了哪一步?

"Yeah, I call it JIT planning now, like just-in-time planning."

嗯,我现在管它叫 JIT planning,也就是 just-in-time 即时规划。

"So, yeah, I think 6 months was too long."

是这样,我觉得 6 个月太长了。

"So, now for sure some projects will take more than a month, but we try to do like a month of planning, like really lightweight."

所以现在,有些项目肯定会做超过一个月,但我们尽量只规划一个月的事,而且非常轻量。

"Actually, there's not even docs."

说实话,连文档都没有。

"It's really just us aligning on a little spreadsheet of what we think is important."

真的就是大家在一张小表格上对一下,把我们觉得重要的事对齐。

"But even that one, I'm kind of thinking through, 'Hey, like every week we should probably still keep a like what we're trying is here are the month's priorities.'"

但就连这个,我也还在琢磨:"嘿,可能我们每周还是该保留这么一份——我们想试的是,把这个月的优先级列出来。"

"And we're going to try it out, but I have a feeling like every week we'll probably want to do really quick like, 'Hey, just to check. Yep, this is still this month's priorities. Good.'"

我们会试一试,但我有种感觉,每周大概都想很快地确认一下:"嘿,核对一下哈。对,这还是这个月的优先级。好。"

"Um but yeah, like now we've shrunk it to JIT monthly planning."

嗯,总之,现在我们把它缩到了 JIT 月度规划。

"So, it's monthly meaning for the next month, here's a little sheet/Excel spreadsheet of what we're planning to do for the next month."

所以"月度"的意思是:针对下个月,这里有一张小表格、一份 Excel,列着下个月打算做的事。

"And then every week check in, is this still what we're planning to do for the next month?"

然后每周核对一次:这还是我们下个月打算做的事吗?

"Yeah, it's very very— But even that one, I'm also still feeling, 'How can we even automate this more?'"

对,非常非常——但就连这个,我也还在想:"我们怎么才能把它再自动化一点?"

"Cuz I never want it to be feeling like a tax when someone has to, you know, update the spreadsheet."

因为我绝不想让"有人得去更新表格"这件事变成一种负担。

"So, this is actually yeah, like just yesterday we're chatting, 'Hey, how can we actually automate this?'"

所以其实就在昨天,我们还在聊:"嘿,我们到底怎么把这个自动化掉?"

"Well, it's getting to that question, always ask yourselves, 'Can we actually automate this better?'"

归根结底就是那个问题——永远问自己:"我们能不能把这件事自动化得更好?"

"Like my PM brain is like, that's so like how could you not do something like that?"

我的 PM 脑子就在想,这也太对了——你怎么可能不去做这样的事呢?

"Okay, here's what we're thinking for the next month. Let's just check it once a week."

好,这就是我们对下个月的想法。每周核对一次就行。

"Let's make sure this is— it's hard to imagine that not happening."

确保这件事——很难想象这居然不会发生。

"Um and you don't have a lot of items on the spreadsheet is what I'm hearing also."

嗯,而且我听下来,你们表格上的条目也不多。

"Yeah, but like we really try focus."

对,但我们真的很努力保持聚焦。

"So, like we will share out like here's what we think are the highest priorities."

所以我们会把这些公布出来:这是我们认为优先级最高的事。

"And again, for that agency of given the priorities, then like everybody's like their kind of like item for how they think addresses those priorities."

再说一次,出于那种 agency——给定了优先级之后,每个人就拿出自己认为能落实这些优先级的事项。

"Is there anything that's like here's for the next like 6 months bigger bets kind of stuff or is it just like let's just think 1 month ahead?"

那有没有那种"这是未来 6 个月的大押注"之类的东西,还是说你们就只往前看一个月?

"I— so we'll usually definitely there's themes of where we think the work, and so we'll definitely um— and actually the whole team will bring everyone together like every 6 months."

我——所以我们通常肯定会有一些主题,标明我们觉得工作的方向,而且整个团队其实每 6 个月会把所有人聚到一起。

"So there we'll usually kick off like some themes but then it's really the making sure we keep the pulse of what— because again like even though themes change, you know, so fast when the landscape changes."

在那种场合我们通常会启动一些主题,但关键还是要随时把住脉搏——因为话说回来,一旦大环境变化,这些主题你懂的,变得特别快。

"All right, let's pull up the spreadsheet and let's take a look."

好,我们把那张表格调出来看看。

"Oh man. Man, this whole podcast could have been just talking about this planning stuff they do."

天哪。老天,这整期播客本来完全可以只聊你们做的这套规划。

"Okay, I'm going to have to find someone else to talk about this cuz this is so interesting just how y'all plan."

好吧,我得另找个人专门聊这个,因为你们到底是怎么规划的,实在太有意思了。

"Uh yeah, okay. Well, Fiona, with that we reached our very exciting lightning round."

呃,好的。那么 Fiona,说到这儿,我们就进入超级精彩的闪电问答环节了。

"I've got five questions for you. Are you ready?"

我给你准备了五个问题。准备好了吗?

"Okay, first question."

好,第一个问题。

"What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?"

有哪两三本书是你最常推荐给别人的?

"Ooh, I will say for fiction actually two authors I recommend to everyone, Margaret Atwood and Haruki Murakami."

哦,小说的话,其实有两位作家我会推荐给所有人,Margaret Atwood 和 Haruki Murakami。

"I mean I grew up in Canada so I read a lot a lot of Atwood growing up, but her books are fascinating cuz it's almost like speculative fiction of you can kind of squint and say okay could this actually happen to a society."

我是在加拿大长大的,所以从小读了非常多 Atwood;她的书特别迷人,几乎像是一种推想小说,你眯起眼睛就会想,这种事会不会真的发生在某个社会身上。

"So I love her take on speculative fiction, and Murakami I love his magical realism style."

所以我很喜欢她写推想小说的方式;Murakami 呢,我喜欢他那种魔幻现实主义的风格。

"But the one book — so there are authors, but the one book I always recommend to everyone to read at least once a year — The Little Prince."

不过要说一本书——前面说的是作家,但有一本书我总会推荐每个人每年至少读一遍——那就是《小王子》。

"I'm sure we probably all read it at some point in our lives, but I read it at least once a year."

我相信我们大概都在人生某个阶段读过它,但我每年至少会重读一遍。

"It just, to remind me to think about like what's truly important."

它只是提醒我去想想,什么才是真正重要的东西。

"Wow. That doesn't come up a bunch. Okay. I love it."

哇,这个答案可不常听到。好,我很喜欢。

"Favorite recent movie or TV show you have really enjoyed?"

最近有没有你特别喜欢的电影或电视剧?

"I haven't watched TV shows."

我没怎么看电视剧。

"That's very common across Anthropic people I have on the podcast. Common theme."

这在我请来上节目的 Anthropic 同事里特别常见,算是个共同点。

"But I will share with you what I always have downloaded on my phone so that if I'm on the airplane — there's three movies I always have on my phone cuz I think they're just so fun to watch if I have time."

但我可以跟你分享我手机里一直存着的东西,这样我在飞机上就能看——有三部电影我手机里一直留着,因为只要有时间看就觉得特别开心。

"One is Amelie."

一部是《Amelie》(天使爱美丽)。

"It's this French movie that — oh my gosh, all of these movies are going to be very old by the way, it's going to be like vintage movies."

这是一部法国电影——天哪,顺带说一句,我说的这几部都很老了,基本都算复古片。

"But I loved Amelie. Super whimsical. So really highly recommend it to anyone that hasn't seen it."

但我太爱《Amelie》了,特别天马行空。所以强烈推荐给所有还没看过的人。

"If you remember I told you I thought I was going to be a visual artist — so when I was 16, my high school took a trip to Paris, and I have so many memories of that, and Amelie really captures the magic I felt at Paris."

你还记得我跟你说过,我曾以为自己会成为一名视觉艺术家吧——我 16 岁那年,高中组织去了巴黎,那段经历给我留下了太多回忆,而《Amelie》正好捕捉到了我当时在巴黎感受到的那种魔力。

"And the other two are Ghibli films. I love Spirited Away."

另外两部是吉卜力的电影。我特别爱《Spirited Away》(千与千寻)。

"It's just such a — I just love that story. I love everything about Spirited Away. It's probably one of my favorite Ghibli films."

它真的是——我太喜欢这个故事了。《千与千寻》的每一处我都爱。它大概是我最喜欢的吉卜力电影之一。

"And then the third was another Ghibli film, Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind."

第三部是另一部吉卜力电影,《Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind》(风之谷)。

"And I think about this one quite a bit because if anyone asked me, 'Hey, how did you think about all these leadership traits?'"

这一部我常常想起,因为如果有人问我:"嘿,你这些领导力特质都是怎么形成的?"

"I watched that movie probably when I was eight or nine."

我大概是八九岁的时候看的那部电影。

"And the heroine Nausicaä, and seeing how she leads, just left such a footprint in my heart I guess you could say, that probably Nausicaä has inspired a lot of my different leadership principles."

女主角 Nausicaä,以及看她如何带领众人的方式,可以说在我心里留下了深深的印记;大概 Nausicaä 启发了我很多不同的领导原则。

"Wow, what is that book called again?"

哇,那本书叫什么来着?

"The movie's called Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind, but it was actually based on a manga."

那部电影叫《Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind》(风之谷),不过它其实是根据一部 manga 改编的。

"Valley of the Wind. So it's like High Output Management by Andy Grove, and Valley of the Wind Nausicaä."

《风之谷》。所以你的管理书单就是 Andy Grove 的《High Output Management》,加上《风之谷》Nausicaä。

"Two top management books. So cool."

两本顶级管理书,太酷了。

"Okay. Do you have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love?"

好。你最近有没有发现什么特别喜欢的产品?

"Could be an app, could be clothing, could be a gadget, could be kitchen equipment."

可以是一个 app,可以是衣服,可以是某个小玩意儿,也可以是厨房用具。

"I'll share the product that I was reminded of how much has made a difference in my life recently, cuz I've been traveling a little bit and I like to travel really light."

我想分享一个最近让我重新意识到它对我生活影响有多大的产品,因为我最近一直在出差,而我又喜欢轻装出行。

"So I use whatever shampoo and conditioner that the hotel gives."

所以酒店给什么洗发水、护发素,我就用什么。

"The product — I actually have one of their hand, I promise this is not an infomercial — but Sweet Sisters Bodycare."

这个产品——我手里其实正好有他们家的一支,我保证这不是广告植入——叫 Sweet Sisters Bodycare。

"It's a local business on Whidbey Island."

它是 Whidbey Island 上的一家本地小店。

"The reason why their product has made such a big difference in my life — it's a full line of organic hair, body, skin care."

他们的产品之所以对我的生活影响这么大——它是一整套有机的护发、身体和护肤产品。

"But a few years ago I started getting this rash on my nose right here that was really painful, like actually bleeding."

几年前,我鼻子这里开始长出一片皮疹,特别疼,甚至会真的出血。

"And I could not for the life of me figure out how to stop it."

我怎么都想不明白该怎么让它停下来。

"Like I tried not using any lotions, I cut everything out on my face and it was still really hurting."

我试过不擦任何乳液,把脸上所有东西都停掉,可它还是疼得厉害。

"And then somebody says, 'What's the shampoo you're using?'"

后来有人问我:"你用的是什么洗发水?"

"I'm like, 'It's the same shampoo I've used since I was like a teenager.'"

我说:"就是我从十几岁起一直用的那款洗发水啊。"

"And they said, 'Maybe your body's just started developing an allergy to it because of the chemicals in it.'"

他们说:"也许是你的身体因为里面的化学成分,现在开始对它过敏了。"

"Wow."

哇。

"I'm like, 'What?' And so anyways, this was an organic shampoo that I found."

我当时想:"啊?"总之,我后来找到了这款有机洗发水。

"Lo and behold, I use their shampoo — cuz you don't think that when you wash your hair, it actually then goes over to the rest of your body."

没想到,我一用他们家的洗发水就好了——因为你平时根本不会想到,洗头的时候这些成分其实会流到身体其他部位。

"But since then I've switched everything that I used to be Sweet Sisters."

从那以后,我把日用品全换成了 Sweet Sisters。

"But I'm recently reminded of how important this is cuz after a week of hotel shampoo, I actually started having some skin reactions again."

最近我又重新意识到这有多重要,因为用了一周酒店洗发水之后,我的皮肤又开始出现一些反应了。

"I'm like, 'Ah, maybe I should get like travel-size bottles that I can bring with me.'"

我心想:"啊,也许我该买些旅行装的小瓶,随身带着。"

"This is an awesome pick. I love local business picks, even big bonus points for that."

这个推荐太棒了。我特别喜欢本地小店的推荐,这一点要额外加分。

"And by the way, this travel you're doing, just for folks that may not know this, there's these Code with Claude events that are happening all over the world."

顺便说一句,你这趟出差——给可能还不知道的朋友补充一下——现在全世界都在办 Code with Claude 活动。

"I went to the one in SF. There was one in London. You're going to one in Tokyo. Is that the end of it or is there more after?"

我去了 SF 那场,London 也办过一场,你接下来要去 Tokyo 那场。这就结束了,还是后面还有?

"Tokyo is next week and that's the last leg of the trip."

Tokyo 那场是下周,也是这趟行程的最后一站。

"And then probably more in the future."

之后大概还会有更多。

"So cool. I love that that's happening."

太酷了,我很高兴能有这些活动。

"Okay, two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself coming back to often in work or in life?"

好,还有两个问题。你有没有一句最喜欢的人生座右铭,是在工作或生活里会反复想起的?

"Ooh. So in work, I really love to remind folks: keep it simple."

哦。工作上,我特别喜欢提醒大家:把事情做简单。

"What is the thing that you're really trying to do well, and focus on that?"

你真正想做好的那件事到底是什么,然后专注在它上面?

"Keep it simple cuz I think sometimes we could overthink. So it's always a good mantra to think about that."

把事情做简单,因为我觉得我们有时候会想太多。所以这始终是一句值得记住的箴言。

"And then in life, probably: in a world where you can be anything, be kind."

至于生活,大概是这句:在一个你可以成为任何样子的世界里,选择善良。

"Yeah. I love that one."

嗯,我很喜欢这一句。

"We were at a Montessori school tour and that's what the teacher had up on the wall."

我们去参观一所蒙特梭利学校的时候,老师就把这句话贴在墙上。

"Aw. It's, you know, we have so many things going on that you never know what's going on in someone else's life, and that one small act of kindness can make the biggest difference."

啊。你懂的,我们每个人都有太多事要忙,你永远不知道别人的生活里正在经历什么,而一个小小的善举,往往能带来最大的改变。

"For me, actually, that was — do you remember COVID? We were all working from home during the COVID days."

对我来说,这其实让我想起——你还记得 COVID 吗?那段日子我们都在家办公。

"It just always really struck with me cuz I was in these back-to-back meetings, and one-on-ones are really important to me because that time is usually also really important for the other person."

这件事一直让我印象很深,因为当时我一个接一个地开会,而一对一对我来说特别重要,因为那段时间通常对另一个人也同样重要。

"It's something that they've been looking forward to. They might have things they want to discuss. So I always really prioritize one-on-ones."

那是他们一直期待的时间,他们可能有想聊的事情。所以我总是把一对一放在很优先的位置。

"But during that time my grandmother wasn't doing well and she was in a home in Canada, and because of COVID I couldn't go visit, and even my aunt and mom couldn't go visit."

但那段时间我祖母身体不好,她住在加拿大的一家养老院里,因为 COVID 我没法去探望,连我姑姑和妈妈都去不了。

"And it was this very rare thing of, if they have a helper that can help, we could do FaceTime, but you never know what time that is going to be because there's so many people to take care of."

而且这种机会非常难得——如果有护工能帮忙,我们才能 FaceTime,但你永远不知道会是什么时间,因为要照顾的人实在太多了。

"And all of a sudden I got a message from my aunt going, 'Grandma can FaceTime at like 12:00 p.m. today.'"

突然有一天,我姑姑发来消息说:"奶奶今天中午 12 点左右可以 FaceTime。"

"I'm like, 'Oh no, there's this one-on-one that I've been meaning to have,' and I just messaged my report to say, 'I'm really really sorry, it's so last minute, is it okay?'"

我心想:"糟了,那个时间我本来约了一个一对一",于是我赶紧给我的下属发消息说:"真的非常非常抱歉,临时变动,可以吗?"

"And I know now when I say it it doesn't seem like a big thing, but to me it's always really important to keep — but he was like, 'Yeah, totally. No problem at all.'"

我知道现在说出来好像没什么大不了的,但守住这些约定对我来说一直很重要——而他只是说:"当然可以,完全没问题。"

"And for me that was just a small act of kindness. He totally didn't make it into a big deal, but that made the biggest difference to me that I got to say hi to my grandmother on FaceTime."

对我来说,那就是一个小小的善举。他完全没把它当回事,但那对我意义重大——因为我得以在 FaceTime 上跟我祖母打了声招呼。

"I love that."

我太喜欢这个故事了。

"Okay. Final question."

好,最后一个问题。

"So Boris Cherny, when I asked him about you, he had this interesting insight where he said, 'In very important meetings you can often hear the click-clack of Fiona knitting in the background.'"

我向 Boris Cherny 打听你的时候,他说了一个很有意思的观察:"在一些非常重要的会议上,你常常能听到背景里 Fiona 织毛线的咔哒咔哒声。"

"Maybe talk about just what's going on there, and what are a couple things you knitted recently?"

能不能聊聊这是怎么回事,以及你最近织了哪几样东西?

"Oh my gosh. Well, I knitted this top recently."

天哪。嗯,我最近织了身上这件上衣。

"You make your own clothing. Unreal."

你自己织衣服。太不真实了。

"This is very meta for Claude Code building itself."

这跟 Claude Code 自己构建自己一样,太有元意味了。

"You know, we're always building our clothing."

你懂的,我们一直在"构建"自己的衣服。

"Yeah, actually this is a whole fun thing I think between knitting and programming, cuz it's kind of like two stitches, knit and a purl, so it's zero and one."

对,其实我觉得织毛线和编程之间有一整套很好玩的联系,因为它基本就两种针法——下针和上针,就像零和一。

"And anyway, so many concepts of stacks and queues you actually could — like I'm kind of like a compiler, I'm kind of like generating an executable when I knit."

总之,栈和队列这么多概念你其实都能套进去——我有点像一个编译器,织毛线的时候有点像在生成一个可执行文件。

"But I don't know about that."

不过这个说法也就那么一说。

"Yeah, actually it was my grandma that taught me to knit when I was eight."

对,其实是我祖母在我八岁那年教会我织毛线的。

"I mentioned her and going to that yarn shop, and so every time I knit I think of her."

我前面提到过她,还有去那家毛线店的事,所以每次织毛线我都会想起她。

"But I always like to multitask as you can see. Like I kick off multiple agents, and so anytime I'm sitting — because I practice enough and got proficient, I don't have to look at what I'm doing."

不过你也看到了,我总喜欢同时干好几件事。比如我会同时启动多个 agent,所以只要我一坐下来——因为我练得够多、够熟练,我根本不用看自己在织什么。

"So it's almost like how sometimes people have like fidget spinners and such. Knitting is just — anytime I'm sitting still I'm like, oh this is time to generate more knitting."

所以这有点像有些人会玩指尖陀螺之类的东西。织毛线就是——只要我一坐着不动,就会想:哦,这时候正好可以"生成"更多毛线活儿。

"It's cute. Well, cuz I got so much yarn that if I don't do this — yeah, I might have a slight yarn addiction problem."

挺可爱的。嗯,因为我囤了太多毛线,要是不织的话——是的,我可能有点轻微的毛线上瘾问题。

"I love this. When I asked Boris what he would do when AGI hits, when we don't have to work, he said he's going to — so I'm guessing your answer would be just knit and make beautiful clothing."

我太喜欢了。我问 Boris,等 AGI 来了、我们都不用工作的时候他要做什么,他说他要——所以我猜你的答案大概就是织毛线、做漂亮的衣服。

"Oh my gosh, my dream is to actually open up a yarn store in my grandmother's name and create that community."

天哪,我的梦想其实是以我祖母的名字开一家毛线店,然后经营起那样一个社区。

"And then Cowork would help you automate everything."

然后 Cowork 可以帮你把一切都自动化。

"That's right. Especially invoicing."

没错,尤其是开发票这一块。

"Oh my god. Fiona, you're awesome."

天哪。Fiona,你太棒了。

"It's just incredible the work that you and your team are doing, just changing the world in such profound ways, and it's clear why it's growing so fast."

你和你的团队所做的事真是令人惊叹,正在以如此深刻的方式改变世界,也难怪它增长得这么快。

"So good job. Good job over there. Thank you for making time for this."

干得太好了,你们那边干得真棒。谢谢你抽时间来参加这期节目。

"Well, I'm just really honestly lucky and humbled that I get to work with such an amazing team."

嗯,说实话,能和这么出色的一个团队共事,我真的觉得自己很幸运、也很谦卑。

"Like I know how lucky I am and I'm so grateful. But thanks a lot for having me on the podcast as well. This was a lot of fun."

我很清楚自己有多幸运,也非常感激。也很谢谢你请我来上这期播客,这次真的很开心。

"To follow up on questions, where can folks find you online if they want to follow up on anything, and how can listeners be useful to you?"

如果大家想就任何话题进一步联系你,可以在网上哪里找到你?另外,听众可以怎样帮到你?

"Ooh, so definitely I'm on LinkedIn, and I'm sure most people have shared this already, but would love feedback of what's going well, what's not going well."

哦,我肯定在 LinkedIn 上,我相信大多数人都已经分享过这点了,但我很想听到反馈:哪些做得好,哪些做得不好。

"Also any latent demand that you are all using that might be interesting use cases."

还有你们正在使用的任何 latent demand,可能会是些有意思的用例。

"I had a friend message me recently to go, 'Oh I'm using Claude to help me generate a building plan for my shed,' and he actually showed me his shed, which was cool."

最近有个朋友给我发消息说:"哦,我在用 Claude 帮我生成自家小棚屋的搭建方案",他还真把他的棚屋给我看了,挺酷的。

"So would love to hear about that."

所以我很想听到这类事情。

"And then maybe also, we talked about reaching out — there's someone, whether a small business that you love or someone that you feel like hasn't, as some of the listeners are super AI pilled."

另外也许还有一点,我们之前聊到过主动伸出援手——身边总有这样的人,可能是你喜欢的一家小店,也可能是某个还没跟上的人,而有些听众已经是非常"信 AI 教"的人了。

"Yeah, maybe take a time to hold somebody's hand to show what AI might be able to help them with."

是的,也许可以花点时间,手把手地带某个人,让他看看 AI 能帮到他们什么。

"Such a good one. That is such a good answer to this question, especially coming from you, Fiona."

这点太好了。这真是对这个问题特别好的回答,尤其是出自你之口,Fiona。

"This was awesome. Thank you so much for being here."

这期太精彩了。非常感谢你来到这里。

"Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening."

各位再见。非常感谢大家的收听。

"If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app."

如果你觉得这期有价值,可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或你常用的播客 app 上订阅本节目。

"Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast."

另外,也欢迎给我们打个分或留个评价,因为这真的能帮助更多听众发现这档节目。

"You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode."

你可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有往期节目,或进一步了解本节目。我们下期再见。