Why Coding Is Solved

"Okay, I'm excited to introduce our next speaker. Show of hands, who here uses Claude code?"

"好,很兴奋介绍下一位演讲嘉宾。举手——在场谁在用 Claude code?"

"Okay, show of hands, who here has Claude code psychosis? Come on guys, it's okay."

"OK,再举手——谁得了 Claude code 综合症?来吧,没关系。"

"My team lovingly says I have Claude code psychosis, which may or may not be true."

"我团队总爱说我有 Claude code 综合症——可能是真的,也可能不是。"

"We are delighted to have Boris Cherny with us today. Boris is the creator, the father of Claude code."

"今天非常高兴请到 Boris Cherny。Boris 是 Claude code 的创造者、它的父亲。"

"In the process of doing that, he's just had a front row seat to reinventing the modern way of software development."

"在做这件事的过程里,他从最前排见证了、也参与了现代软件开发方式的重塑。"

"We're really grateful to you, Boris, for taking the time to speak with us today. We know that the entirety of software development kind of rests on your shoulders."

"Boris,真的很感谢你抽时间过来。我们都知道某种意义上整个软件开发都压在你肩上。"

"So, thank you for taking it out of your time to be with us today. And interviewing Boris is Lauren Reeder from our team. Thank you."

"所以谢谢你今天能来。和 Boris 对谈的是我们团队的 Lauren Reeder。谢谢。"

"You took my opening line, Asia. We asked who here uses Claude code. There's a lot of hands. That's awesome."

"Asia,你抢了我的开场白。我们刚问过'在场谁用 Claude code'。好多手——太棒了。"

"Thank you for joining us, Boris. It's very special to have you here. As a roomful of builders, I think you are changing building entirely."

"Boris,谢谢加入我们,请到你太特别了。在场全是 builder——我觉得你正在彻底改变 building 这件事本身。"

"And so, I'm very curious to explore how you think about the future of software, coding, and what we should spend all of our free time on."

"所以我很好奇,你怎么看软件、编码的未来,以及我们这帮人该把空闲时间花在哪里。"

"But I'll give you a tiny bit more background on you so that everyone has a little bit more context."

"先把你的背景再补一点点,让大家有上下文。"

"So, beyond creating Claude code, Boris is very much an engineer's engineer. You were writing a lot of code through your whole career, writing textbooks about code, including Programming in TypeScript."

"除了创造 Claude code,Boris 是个十足的"工程师里的工程师"——整个职业生涯都在写代码、写关于代码的书,包括《Programming in TypeScript》。"

"And I think last time we chatted you hadn't written a single line of code in the last year, or at least so far in 2026, which is quite the change."

"我们上次聊的时候你说过去一年——至少 2026 年到现在——一行代码都没亲手写过。这反差挺大。"

"There's also a little known thing — back in middle school, you wrote a guide about writing BASIC for TI-83 Plus calculators."

"还有个鲜为人知的事——你初中写过一本《用 BASIC 给 TI-83 Plus 计算器编程》的指南。"

"I just searched for it, it's actually still on the internet. It's extremely embarrassing, so please don't search it. But it exists. We will definitely be finding that."

"我刚搜过,网上还能找到。极其尴尬,所以拜托别去搜——但它确实在。我们一定会找出来。"

"So, I'm going to start with a few questions here. Maybe we'll start with a little bit of the history of Claude code, how you started it, and then we're going to have a lot of audience Q&A for this one."

"我会先问几个问题——从 Claude code 的简短历史聊起,你怎么起步的——然后这场会有很多观众 Q&A。"

"So, start thinking about your questions in the back of your head, and would love to turn it over to you all soon."

"所以大家先在脑子里准备问题,稍后会把麦交给你们。"

"Yeah. And also real quick — for people that use Claude code, do people use the CLI mostly?"

"嗯。哦再快速问一下——用 Claude code 的人,大部分用 CLI 吗?"

"Okay, majority CLI? Okay. That's a lot. Majority desktop? Okay. Majority VS Code or JetBrains IDE? Okay. That's actually not a lot."

"OK,大部分 CLI?好,挺多。大部分 desktop?OK。大部分 VS Code 或 JetBrains?OK——其实不多。"

"Other? I'm like iOS mostly these days. Yeah."

"还有别的?我自己最近基本在 iOS 上。是的。"

"So I started Claude code kind of accidentally in a lot of ways."

"Claude code 某种意义上是我意外搞起来的。"

"I joined this team back in late 2024. It was a sort of incubator within Anthropic called Anthropic Labs."

"我 2024 年底加入 Anthropic 内部的一个孵化团队,叫 Anthropic Labs。"

"The team kind of served its purpose. We created Claude code, MCP, and the desktop app. It was just a few of us — very much like an innovation team."

"团队完成了它的使命。我们做出了 Claude code、MCP、和 desktop app。当时就几个人,很像 innovation team 的形态。"

"We built the thing that we wanted to build, we disbanded the team. Now the team's actually back together for round two."

"做完想做的东西就解散了。现在这个团队又重新组起来做 round two。"

"Mike Krieger — chief product officer at Anthropic, and used to be one of the founders at Instagram — is leading that right now."

"Mike Krieger——Anthropic 的 CPO、Instagram 联合创始人之一——现在带这个团队。"

"So the reason that I started to work on coding is we felt like there was this product overhang."

"我之所以开始做 coding,是因为我们觉得当时存在一个 product overhang。"

"I'm guessing people here use that word a lot. But we definitely use this word a lot within the lab."

"我猜在场也常用这个词。我们 Lab 内部用得特别多。"

"There's this idea that the model can do all the stuff that no product has yet captured."

"意思是:模型能做的事,远超当下任何产品已经承载的范围。"

"And in late 2024, when we were looking at coding, the state of the art at the time was type ahead."

"2024 年底我们看 coding 的时候,业内最强形态还停在 type ahead。"

"You open your IDE and you press tab and you can complete like one line at a time. That was the thing that Sonnet 3.5 enabled for the first time."

"你打开 IDE,按 tab,一次补一行代码——这是 Sonnet 3.5 第一次做到的事。"

"But the feeling was we could actually go a lot further than that. And the model was almost ready for the next big step."

"但我们觉得能走得更远。模型已经快准备好下一步大跃迁了。"

"So we don't have to do type ahead anymore — we can just have the agent write all of the code."

"所以不必再做 type ahead——可以直接让 agent 写所有代码。"

"And so I built it, and it just really didn't work for the first 6 months. It was barely usable. I used it for maybe 10% of my code or something like that."

"于是我做出来——头六个月根本不 work,几乎没法用,我自己也就把 10% 的代码交给它。"

"Even after we released Claude code initially, it was not a hit. There's a lot of people that used it, but it did not have this exponential growth that it has today."

"即便最初版本发出去后,Claude code 也没爆。用的人不少,但完全没有今天这种指数增长。"

"That started with Opus 4 in May. I remember that very clearly. That's when the exponential growth started, and then it kind of inflected with every model release."

"拐点是 5 月 Opus 4 发布——我记得清清楚楚。从那时开始指数增长,之后每发一次模型再拐一次。"

"Like it started with Opus 4, then 4.5, then 4.6, now 4.7. It just keeps inflecting."

"Opus 4、4.5、4.6、再到 4.7——一路 inflect 下去。"

"But essentially, we were trying to build this thing that was pre-PMF, and we knew that it wouldn't have PMF for 6 months because we were building for the next model. And that was the idea pretty much the whole time."

"但本质上,我们一直在做一个 pre-PMF 的产品——明知道未来六个月没 PMF,因为我们是在为下一个模型 build。整个过程都是这个思路。"

"For Anthropic in general, we've always just been very focused. We've always cared about business and enterprise and safety and coding. That's always been kind of the way that we wanted to build."

"Anthropic 整体很 focused——一直关心的就是 business、enterprise、safety、coding。这是我们一直想要的 build 方式。"

"So at some point we kind of knew that we wanted to build a product. We didn't know exactly what we wanted. So this kind of ended up being the product bet."

"所以某个时点我们知道要做一个产品——不知道具体要做什么,coding 最后就成了那个 product bet。"

"It's an incredible story, especially that it was an accident."

"这故事太精彩了——尤其它是个意外。"

"You've said on the record that you think coding is solved. If this is one of the three best from Anthropic, can you tell us more about what you mean by that, and what might still not be solved, or what second-order problems might come?"

"你公开说过,你认为编码已经被解决。如果这是 Anthropic 三个最重要押注之一——能不能说更多?你说的'被解决'到底是什么意思?哪些还没被解决?或者会带来什么二阶问题?"

"All right. I can ask another question for the room. Who writes 100% of their code by hand?"

"好。我也问大家一个问题——谁现在 100% 还在手写代码?"

"Who writes 100% of their code using an agent like Claude code? Okay. Who's like somewhere in between? Okay. So, like 50% solved."

"谁 100% 用 agent(比如 Claude code)写代码?OK。谁在中间?好——那大概'50% 解决'。"

"I mean, for me it's like 100%. The Claude code code base — you know, it leaked, so people know. It's pretty simple. It's just TypeScript and React. There's no big secret. There's nothing really complicated."

"对我来说是 100%。Claude code 的代码库——你也知道它泄露过,大家都看过——非常简单,就是 TypeScript + React,没什么秘密,也没什么复杂的东西。"

"The reason we picked TypeScript and React is it's very on distribution for the model."

"选 TypeScript 和 React 的原因是这俩对模型来说非常 on distribution(在分布之内)。"

"So, when we started building the code base, the model was not as intelligent as it is today, so the language and the framework mattered a lot."

"我们刚开始建代码库时,模型还没现在这么聪明,所以选什么语言、什么框架很重要。"

"Nowadays, it can write whatever, and it can pick up new languages, new frameworks it hasn't seen. But back then, you wanted to use something pretty on distribution."

"现在它什么都能写,没见过的语言和框架也能上手。但当时你需要用比较 on distribution 的东西。"

"Because of that, I think fairly early we got to the point where the model just wrote 100% of the code. And for us, this happened sometime in October, November last year."

"也正因为这样,我们其实挺早就到了'模型 100% 写代码'的状态。对我们来说,这是去年十月、十一月发生的。"

"And so, for me today, the model writes 100% of my code. I write somewhere, usually a few dozen PRs every day."

"所以对我现在来说,模型写了 100% 的代码。我每天大概合几十个 PR。"

"There was a day last week I did like 150 PRs in a day. That was a record. I was just trying to push to see how far I can get it."

"上周有一天我合了 150 个 PR——那是个人纪录。当时纯粹是想试试能推到多远。"

"But yeah, it's like for me it's just solved."

"对我来说,就是 solved 了。"

"But this is not the case everywhere. There's very big complicated code bases. There's kind of weird languages the model's not good at yet. As everyone here knows, it's getting there. Usually the answer is just wait for the next model."

"但不是所有地方都这样——有些代码库非常大、非常复杂,有些语言模型还不擅长。在场各位都知道,正在追上来——通常答案就是:等下一个模型。"

"Can you actually tell us about your personal setup? You walked us through it the other day. It is pretty wild."

"能跟我们讲讲你个人的工作流吗?你前几天演示给我看过——挺野的。"

"Yeah. So I shared my personal setup like 6 months ago or something on Twitter. And it's funny, I actually shared it — I didn't realize that it would be surprising for anyone. That was just like the way that I coded."

"嗯。我大概六个月前在 Twitter 上分享过我的个人工作流。有意思的是,发的时候我根本没意识到这对别人会很意外——那只是我当时写代码的方式。"

"And it's changed since then."

"而且自那以后又变了。"

"It's changed. So now actually most of my work I do from my phone."

"对,变了。现在我大部分工作其实是在手机上做的。"

"I don't know if you guys will be able to see this, but I have the Claude app, and if you open the Claude app, on the left-hand side there's this little code tab, and I just have a bunch of sessions going. You probably can't see it."

"你们可能看不清——我打开 Claude app,左侧有个小小的 code tab,里面开着一堆 session。你们大概看不见。"

"How many sessions?"

"多少个 session?"

"Usually have like maybe five to 10 sessions. And then the sessions usually have a bunch of agents, so currently probably like a few hundred agents going."

"通常 5 到 10 个 session。每个 session 又跑一堆 agent,所以现在大概有几百个 agent 同时在跑。"

"Usually every night I have like a few thousand that are doing kind of deeper work."

"夜里通常有几千个 agent 在做更深的活儿。"

"There's a few ways to manage it. One is that you ask Claude to use a bunch of sub-agents to do work."

"管理方式有几种。一种是让 Claude 起一批 sub-agent 去干活。"

"Actually, the thing that I've been finding myself using more and more is the loop. So this is /loop, and it's just like the coolest thing. It's like the simplest thing that works."

"但我自己越来越多在用的是 loop——命令是 /loop。这玩意儿太酷了,简单到不能再简单,但就是 work。"

"All it is is you have Claude use cron to schedule a job for some point in the future, and it's a repeat job. And it can run every minute, every 5 minutes, every day — however often you want to schedule it."

"本质就是让 Claude 用 cron 在未来某个时点排一个 repeat job——可以每分钟、每 5 分钟、每天跑,你想多频就多频。"

"And at this point, I have like dozens of loops that are running for stuff."

"我现在大概有几十个 loop 在跑。"

"So I have one that's babysitting my PRs — fixing CI, auto-rebasing. I have another one that keeps CI healthy — like if there's a flaky test or whatever, it'll go and fix it."

"比如一个在帮我看 PR——修 CI、自动 rebase。另一个负责让 CI 保持健康——哪个测试 flaky 了,它会自己去修。"

"I have another one that grabs feedback from Twitter and kind of clusters it for me every 30 minutes. So I just have a bunch of these loops running at any time."

"还有一个每 30 分钟从 Twitter 抓反馈、做聚类。总之随时都有一堆 loop 在跑。"

"I sort of feel like loops are the future at this point. If you haven't experimented with it, highly highly recommend it."

"我现在的感觉是——loops 就是未来。还没试过的强烈强烈推荐。"

"And we also just launched routines, which is the same thing but kind of on the server. So even if you close your laptop, it keeps going."

"我们最近还发布了 routines,功能一样,但跑在服务器端——即使你合上笔记本,它还在跑。"

"So that's your personal setup. Tell us about what you think teams will look like in the future."

"这是你个人的工作流。能聊聊你觉得未来团队会长什么样吗?"

"How do you extrapolate from all the work you're doing to keep everyone on the team moving forward, understanding the context, or do you think we need to let go of a lot more to agents to make it work?"

"你怎么从你自己这种工作模式外推到团队?整个团队怎么持续推进、共享上下文?或者你觉得我们得把更多东西交给 agent 才行得通?"

"I think — it's so hard to make predictions, but I'm here to make predictions, so I'll try to make some."

"嗯——做预测真的很难,但我来这儿就是做预测的,那就试试。"

"I feel like the way that things are going is generally there's going to be a lot more generalists than there are today."

"我感觉走向是这样:未来 generalist 会比今天多得多。"

"And today when we talk about generalists, I think largely we're talking about people that are still engineers. So they're still writing code, but maybe they're kind of product engineers. When we say generalist, it's like they do iOS and web and server, for example. That's like a generalist in engineering."

"今天我们说 generalist,大多还是在说工程师——他们仍然写代码,只不过是 product engineer 那种,iOS、web、server 都会。这算是'工程领域内'的 generalist。"

"But I think the thing that we're going to start to see a lot more of is generalists that are cross-disciplinary."

"但我觉得接下来会大量出现的,是**跨学科**的 generalist。"

"So this is engineers that are really good at product engineering, but also really great at design. Or really great at product and data science. I don't know."

"比如工程师不仅 product engineering 强,设计也很好;或者产品 + 数据科学双修。说不清。"

"It's something that we're starting to see on our team. A lot of people on the Claude code team are generalists across disciplines."

"我们团队已经在出现这种人。Claude code 团队里很多人就是跨学科的 generalist。"

"Everyone on our team codes. So our engineering manager, our product manager, our designers, our data scientist, our finance guy, our user researcher — every single person on our team writes code."

"我们团队每个人都写代码——engineering manager、PM、设计师、数据科学家、财务、用户研究员——每一个人都写。"

"And so they're specialists in something, but now also everyone's just coding."

"他们各有自己的专长,但现在每个人也都在 coding。"

"I'm seeing some nods, but I bet also it's actually not that surprising to people in this room cuz I bet you're seeing the same things."

"我看到有人点头——这对在场各位大概也不算意外,你们应该在看到同样的趋势。"

"I'll have one more favorite question then we'll open up to the audience. We talked a bit about what's changing with coding. I'm curious about what you see changing in the world of software or software products."

"我再问一个最后的最爱问题,然后就开放给观众。我们刚聊了 coding 在变化。我好奇——你看到软件、或软件产品的世界里在发生什么?"

"I think as we see AI making writing code 10 or 100x cheaper, what happens to the value of the products that are produced with software? Do we have a SaaS apocalypse on our hands? How do you think this plays out?"

"AI 把'写代码'的成本降了 10 倍、100 倍——那由软件构建出来的产品的价值会怎么变?我们是不是面临一场 SaaS 末日?你觉得这会怎么演下去?"

"And again, you're going to have to make another prediction."

"——又得请你再做一次预测。"

"The SaaS apocalypse question is my favorite question then. I think there's two things that are going to happen and I don't think either of them is the thing that people have been talking about."

"那 SaaS 末日就是我最爱的问题了。我觉得会有两件事发生——而且这两件都不是大家一直在讨论的。"

"Is anyone here an Acquired listener? Like the Acquired podcast? Yeah, it's like the best podcast. I actually got to do an unplugged with them the other week and I felt like I got to meet my heroes cuz the hosts are the best."

"在场有人听 Acquired 那档 podcast 吗?对,Acquired 是最好的 podcast 之一。我前阵子参与了他们的一期 unplugged,感觉像见到偶像——两位主持简直是最棒的。"

"So they have this idea of seven powers — this is Hamilton, he wrote a book about this — and this is kind of the seven modes in business."

"他们讲过一个 '7 powers' 的概念——这是 Hamilton (Helmer) 写的那本书——指商业里的七种 power(护城河类型)。"

"And I think what's going to happen is because of AI, some of these modes are going to get more important and some are going to get less important."

"我觉得接下来因为 AI,有些 power 会变得更重要,有些会变得不重要。"

"For example, one that gets less important is switching costs, because you can just use the model and you can kind of port from one thing to a different thing."

"比如变弱的——switching cost(切换成本)。因为你可以让模型直接帮你从一个产品迁移到另一个。"

"Another one that gets less important is process power. For companies whose mode is like workflows and process and things like this, Claude is getting really good at figuring out process."

"另一个变弱的是 process power(流程优势)。对那些主要靠工作流和流程的公司来说,Claude 在'看穿流程'这件事上越来越强。"

"And especially with 4.7, it can just hill climb anything. If you give it a target and you tell it to iterate until it's done, it will just do it. I think this is the first model like that."

"尤其是 4.7——它能 hill climb 任何东西。给一个目标,告诉它'一直迭代直到完成',它就真的会去做。我觉得这是第一个能这么干的模型。"

"So I think these are going to get less important, but I think the previous modes actually still matter. So this is like network effects, scale economies, cornered resources, things like that. These are not really changing with AI."

"所以这两条会变弱。但其他几条 power 还是 matter——network effects(网络效应)、scale economies(规模经济)、cornered resources(独占资源)——这些 AI 改变不了。"

"I think the second thing is if you look at the number of startups today, or maybe in the past 10 years, I think the number of startups in the next 10 years that are just going to like disrupt everything is going to increase like 10x."

"第二件事——回看过去 10 年的创业数量;我觉得未来 10 年里'颠覆一切'级别的创业会比过去 10 年多 10 倍。"

"Because right now you can be a tiny startup, you could build a thing that's as valuable as a large company and you can actually compete head-to-head."

"因为现在小到不行的 startup 也能造出和大公司一样有价值的东西,而且能正面 PK。"

"Because the large company has to evolve their business process, they have to evolve the way they work, they have to retrain everyone to use technology, they're going to face a lot of internal resistance to that."

"大公司必须演化自己的业务流程、改造工作方式、把所有人重新训练去用新技术——他们会遭遇巨大的内部阻力。"

"But you know, no one here has that problem. If you're starting fresh, then you can kind of build with AI natively from the ground up."

"但在场各位没这个问题。从零开始,你可以从 ground up 用 AI 原生地搭。"

"So, I don't know. I think it's the best time to build. It's the best time to be a startup. There's so much disruption coming."

"所以我说不准——但我觉得现在是最适合 build 的时候,最适合做创业,接下来会有很多颠覆要发生。"

"So, there is hope for us after all. Thank you, Boris. I would love to open up to audience questions if anyone has anything they would like to ask. Dan?"

"看来我们还是有希望的。Boris,谢谢你。如果有人想提问,我想开放观众问答。Dan?"

"Yeah, I'm curious. You said that you built 6 months before there was product-market fit, but now given that the models are good enough, how much do you attribute the success of Claude code to the model versus product decisions in the field of product?"

"嗯,我好奇——你说你们提前 6 个月开始做(在 PMF 之前)。现在模型已经够好了——Claude code 的成功,你归因于'模型本身'多少 vs '产品决策'多少?"

"I think it's probably a mix. Yeah, I think it's a mix. If you asked me maybe a year ago, the ratio was maybe something like 50/50. If you asked me 6 months ago, the mix would be 50/50."

"我觉得是混合的。一年前问我,大概 50/50;半年前问我,也是 50/50。"

"What about in 2 years?"

"两年后呢?"

"Oh, 2 years I don't know, dude. We plan in like we plan in 1 week out."

"两年后?哥们儿不知道。我们做计划只看一周。"

"And by the way, I think the reason it was 50/50 is — I did YC back in the day. I was the first hire at a YC company and I did a bunch of startups."

"顺带说一下,为什么是 50/50:我以前做过 YC——是某家 YC 公司的第一个员工,也搞过一堆创业。"

"And in startups, like the thing that they drill into you, and especially in YC over and over, is build something people love."

"创业里——尤其 YC 一遍遍灌输给你的——就是'做用户爱用的东西'。"

"And so it doesn't matter what the product is, it doesn't matter like the model and all this stuff. You still in the end have to build a thing that people love."

"所以无论产品是什么、模型有多好,最终你还是得做出一个用户真心喜欢的东西。"

"And I think that's why the product matters — is we pay so much attention to the little details so that as you use it all day, it's a really great experience."

"这就是为什么产品重要——我们极度关注细节,确保你一整天用下来体验都很好。"

"I think as the model's gotten better, the harness kind of gets less important."

"随着模型变好,harness(外围承载层)反而越来越不重要。"

"And I think what we're thinking about right now is — how do we evolve the harness? So like how do we make loops more of a first class thing? How do we make it easier to run a lot of agents? You know, sub agents is one idea. There's a bunch more stuff that we're cooking."

"我们现在在想的就是——harness 该怎么演化?怎么把 loop 做成 first-class 概念?怎么让人更容易同时跑很多 agent?sub-agent 是其中一个思路,我们还有更多东西在做。"

"But I think in a year, the model will be much better aligned. And so all the safety mechanisms that we have today around prompt injection and static verification of commands and permission modes, human in the loop — all this kind of stuff is just going to be less important cuz the model will just do the right thing."

"但我觉得一年之内,模型会更对齐。今天我们围绕 prompt injection、命令静态校验、权限模式、human-in-the-loop 设的所有安全机制——都会变得不那么重要,因为模型自己会做对的事。"

"So, yeah, that's my prediction. You want to toss the box, Dan?"

"嗯,这是我的预测。Dan,要不你把麦传出去?"

"To zoom out a little bit from software, I think Claude code did a cultural change a few months ago where it democratized building software."

"从软件话题往外缩一缩——我觉得 Claude code 几个月前掀起了一种文化改变,把'造软件'这件事民主化了。"

"You can see shop owners building their own software for themselves, or even programming microcontrollers to control the light when someone opens the door."

"现在能看到店主自己做软件,甚至有人编程一个微控器、在门一开时控制灯。"

"Do you see in the future building software becoming a skill like Microsoft Office? Something that everybody can do, not just people in the tech industry?"

"你觉得未来'造软件'会不会变成像 Microsoft Office 一样的技能?——人人都能做,而不仅限科技行业?"

"Oh my god, yes. Yes. Yes. I think it's going to be even more than that. It's going to be a skill like — yeah, like I know how to send a text message."

"天哪,会的。绝对会。我觉得不止于此——它会变成像'我会发短信'这种基本技能。"

"I read a — my two genres are essentially sci-fi and tech history. This is what I read a lot of."

"我读的——我的两个主要题材就是科幻和科技史,基本都看这两类。"

"I think in tech history, there's one thing which to me is the clearest parallel for what's happening right now. And this is in the 1400s, the printing press in Europe."

"在科技史里,有一件事我觉得是当下最清晰的类比——1400 年代欧洲的印刷机。"

"What happened was before the printing press, essentially 10% of the European population was literate. They knew how to read and write. They were often employed by kings and lords that were not literate. Their job was to read and write — and this is not something that everyone knew how to do."

"印刷机出现之前,欧洲大约只有 10% 的人识字、会读写。他们经常被那些自己不识字的国王和贵族雇用,职业就是'读和写'——这是一项不是所有人都会的技能。"

"The printing press was invented, then there were two more presses, and in the 50 years after the first printing press, there was more literature published in Europe than in the thousand years before."

"印刷机被发明出来,接着又有两台。第一台印刷机问世后的 50 年里,欧洲出版的文献比此前一千年还多。"

"And over the same period, the cost of literature, the cost of a book, went down like a 100x."

"同一时期,书籍的成本下降了大约 100 倍。"

"And then it took a couple hundred years cuz learning to read and write is hard. You need education systems and government and everyone can't be working on farms and so on. But over the next few hundred years, literacy globally went up to like 70%."

"后续花了几百年才落地——学读写本身很难,要有教育体系、政府配套,还得让大量人不再只在田里劳作。但接下来几百年,全球识字率涨到了大约 70%。"

"And so now we can all read and write, and you don't need a degree in reading and writing to know how to read and write. Although still there are professional writers — and that is a thing that you can do."

"所以现在我们都会读写,不需要拿个'读写学位'。当然依然有职业作家——这条路也走得通。"

"So I think the thing that's about to happen — and it's going to be much faster than 50 years — is software will be a thing that is fully democratized, that anyone can do."

"我觉得接下来要发生的——而且会比 50 年快得多——就是软件会被彻底民主化,每个人都能做。"

"And there's a lot of corollaries to this. So for example, let's say you're writing accounting software. The best person to write accounting software, I think maybe even today, is not an engineer, it's a really good accountant — because they know the domain really well, and coding is the easy part. It's knowing the domain that's the hard part."

"这里有很多推论。比如,你要写会计软件——我觉得即便今天,最适合写会计软件的人也不是工程师,而是一个真正懂行的会计师。因为他们对领域非常熟,而 coding 是简单的那部分——**懂业务才是难的那部分**。"

"And I think this is just obviously the future."

"我觉得这就是未来,毫无疑问。"

"One of the things Greg said was that you guys are living in the future a little bit cuz you get to have access to the models and the agents. Claude code was an internal tool before you released it."

"Greg 之前说过,你们某种程度上'活在未来',因为能用上前沿的模型和 agent。Claude code 在发布前是 Anthropic 的内部工具。"

"Is the gap between where you guys are in engineering and the rest of the world — is that a month? Three months? Six months? And is that gap getting bigger or smaller over time?"

"你们在工程层面领先外界多久——一个月?三个月?六个月?这个 gap 在变大还是变小?"

"Internally, we use the same models everyone else does. For us, the dog fooding is really really important. So we use the thing that everyone else here does."

"内部我们用的是和外界一样的模型——dog fooding 对我们极其重要,所以我们用的就是在场各位在用的同一套。"

"We use like a little bit of mythos to try it, and then we use a lot of Opus 4.7 to dog food it and to write most of our code."

"我们会用一点 mythos 来试,然后大量用 Opus 4.7 来 dog food、写绝大多数代码。"

"I think on the model side, there isn't really a gap. It's pretty much mythos, and that — or some descendant of that — will become available at some point to everyone."

"模型层面其实没什么 gap。基本就是 mythos——或者它的某个后代——某个时点会对所有人开放。"

"I think on the product side, there's probably a far larger gap. And that's just related to us changing all of our processes."

"产品层面 gap 大得多。这跟我们在彻底改造自己的所有流程有关。"

"Like if you talk to people at Anthropic, we use Claude for literally everything."

"比如你跟 Anthropic 的人聊聊——我们什么都用 Claude。"

"And our Claudes are talking all day. As I'm coding, as my Claudes are coding in a loop, they will communicate over Slack to talk to other people's Claudes that are also running in a loop to kind of figure out unknowns."

"我们的 Claude 们每天都在互相说话。当我在 coding、我的 Claude 们在 loop 里 coding 时,它们会通过 Slack 跟别人的 Claude(也在 loop 里跑)交流,把搞不清的东西搞清楚。"

"We have no more manually written code anywhere at the company. All of the SQL is written by models. Everything is just built by the models."

"公司里已经没有任何手写代码了。所有 SQL 都是模型写的。所有东西都是模型 build 的。"

"So I think actually the place that we're ahead is not the technology, cuz the same technology available to us is available to everyone here, because fundamentally we are building a platform."

"所以我们真正领先的地方不是技术——因为我们用的技术,在场各位都能用——本质上我们在做一个 platform。"

"And so for us, it's really important that developers can use the same thing that we're using, and that we dog food everything that we put out there."

"所以对我们来说,开发者必须能用上和我们一样的工具,我们必须 dog food 我们发布的一切。"

"But I think there's actually a far bigger lead in kind of the organizational structure and organizational process. And this is a place where hopefully we can talk about it in places like this and everyone can kind of learn from it and also evolve."

"但我觉得真正的大领先,在**组织结构和组织流程**上。希望能在这种场合多聊这事,让大家可以借鉴、也可以一起演化。"

"And I think that's one of the advantages startups have. It's so much easier to start there. Jared?"

"我觉得这恰恰是 startup 的一个优势——从这里起步要容易得多。Jared?"

"Last time we talked I think you'd mentioned multi-agent — it was very in code at the time at a prior Sequoia event — and you mentioned that there were some things going down the pipeline and things you're thinking about."

"我们上次聊的时候你提过 multi-agent——当时是在前一次 Sequoia 活动上,你说有一些东西在 pipeline 里、是你在思考的方向。"

"Now obviously there's /batch, there's /loop, there's sub teams, there's teams."

"现在很明显有 /batch、/loop、sub team、team 这些东西。"

"Can you speak some to either at the model level and at the harness level, how you're injecting priors in the harness level, how the objective function is changing at the model level to kind of make this experience around delegating work, spinning up agents better?"

"能不能聊聊——在模型层和 harness 层,你们怎么在 harness 层注入 prior、模型层 objective function 怎么变化,让'委派工作 / 起 agent'这套体验更好?"

"Cuz so much of the work is parallelizable. You can do so many things so much faster, and I feel like I have to overlay my own intuition for when to parallelize things rather than the model kind of understanding that you can spin up 10 sub agents for something."

"因为很多工作是可以并行的——做这些事可以快得多。我现在感觉得靠自己的直觉去判断什么时候并行,而不是模型自己知道'这个事可以起 10 个 sub-agent'。"

"On the product side, it really just comes down to prompting. That's how it is. We tweak prompts to kind of help the model do stuff in parallel more."

"产品层面其实就是 prompting,就这么简单。我们调 prompt,帮模型多做并行。"

"But also, honestly, as the model gets better, it just naturally does this. Something like loop — I found actually 4.7, it just starts doing it, which is really cool."

"但说实话,模型变好之后,它自然就会这么做。比如 loop——我发现 4.7 就自己开始做了,挺酷的。"

"It does something like — I'll tell it, 'Go pull this data query.' And it's like, 'Hey, I noticed that the data is changing over time. I'll start a loop and I'll give you a report every 30 minutes.' And I'm like, 'Great. Can you send it to me over Slack?' And then it uses the Slack MCP to do that."

"比如这样——我跟它说'去 pull 这个数据查询'。它说'诶,我注意到这个数据在随时间变。我起一个 loop,每 30 分钟给你一份报告吧。'我说'好啊,能用 Slack 发我吗?'然后它就用 Slack MCP 发了。"

"So I think actually over time, it's not on users to figure out how to hold the tools better. And if that's the case, it's actually a product design problem and I'm not doing a good job."

"所以我觉得长远来看,不该让用户去搞明白怎么用好工具。如果用户得费劲,那就是我们产品设计没做好。"

"It's really on the model to do this stuff better, and on us kind of prompting it so it naturally does this."

"应该是模型自己越来越会做,加上我们 prompt 它一下,让它自然地做出这种行为。"

"Right now it seems like a lot of us use Claude or Codex or these tools in the cloud to do a lot of our computing. But there are some very vocal advocates of having your AI be local."

"现在我们大多在用 Claude、Codex 这种云上的工具做计算。但也有一些'AI 必须本地'的呼声很高。"

"I could imagine over time as open weight models and other things catch up, this could be more of a possibility for people to get really high-quality coding assistance."

"我能想象——随着 open-weight 模型和其他东西追上,本地高质量 coding 助手会越来越可能。"

"So I'm curious your vision over the next years. Do you see the trajectory of everyone still really relying on the cloud centralized compute, or is there a pivot to 'we all just have our local agents that we can rely on and they don't get throttled'?"

"所以好奇你对未来几年的判断——大家还会继续依赖云上中心化算力?还是会 pivot 到'每个人都有本地 agent、不会被限速'?"

"There's maybe a few ways to answer that. The most fundamental way is — it doesn't matter. Cuz now we're getting to the point where the model is just able to figure it out."

"可以从几个角度答。最根本的回答是——不重要。因为我们正在到一个点:模型自己就能搞定。"

"So I think by a couple years from now, the model is just going to be doing all the code. It's going to be starting the agents. It's going to be building the environments."

"我觉得几年后,模型会负责写所有代码、起所有 agent、建所有环境。"

"And so if it decides 'actually I'll use local models to do this,' then that's what it'll do. I don't think these will be decisions that we are making as engineers anymore."

"所以如果它决定'这个我用本地模型',那就用本地模型。我觉得未来这些都不是工程师要做的决定了。"

"We have time for a couple more questions, so I can toss this out. Jamie."

"时间还能再问几个问题。麦给 Jamie。"

"Thank you. It feels like one of the great decisions with Claude Code was making use of the fact that a lot of developers' tools and workflows are local."

"谢谢。我觉得 Claude Code 一个很好的决定是——它利用了开发者工具和工作流大多是本地的这件事。"

"But that isn't necessarily always the case for sort of general knowledge work with, you know, cloud tools. I'm curious how you're thinking about this with Co-work — how do you give Co-work enough access to the tools that we use to be powerful the same way that Claude Code is for developers?"

"但通用知识工作不是这样,工具大多在云上。我好奇 Co-work 怎么想——你们怎么给 Co-work 足够的访问权限,让它在我们用的那些工具里像 Claude Code 之于开发者一样强大?"

"Yeah, that's a really great question. When I was at a big company, we took like 5 years moving all the environments to remote. It's just so much work, especially at a big scale."

"好问题。我以前在一家大公司,我们花了 5 年把所有环境搬到远程。这事工作量极大,尤其大规模时。"

"But for knowledge work, largely it's there already with Salesforce and Docs and things like that."

"但知识工作大都已经在远端了——Salesforce、Docs 这些。"

"For us, it's always just the simplest answer. It's just MCP. So the same MCP connector that you have in Claude AI, you hook up Salesforce, you hook up Google Docs, Google Calendar. And then Co-work can use that. Claude CLI can use it. Claude Code everywhere can use it."

"对我们来说答案最简单——就是 MCP。你在 Claude AI 里用的同一个 MCP connector,接上 Salesforce、Google Docs、Google Calendar——然后 Co-work 能用、Claude CLI 能用、所有 Claude Code 也都能用。"

"And for the systems that don't have MCPs, do you think that's where computer use is going to be a big opportunity?"

"那对没有 MCP 的系统呢?你觉得 computer use 会是个大机会吗?"

"Yeah, I think computer use is kind of a catchall. I think currently, as far as I know, Anthropic is pretty far ahead on computers. So if you use it through Co-work, it's quite good."

"对,computer use 算兜底方案。目前据我所知,Anthropic 在 computer use 上领先挺多。如果通过 Co-work 用,效果挺好。"

"It's able to use pretty much any piece of software that you have on your computer. It's very slow, but it does it quite well now, especially with 4.7."

"它基本能用你电脑上的任何软件。很慢,但现在做得挺好,尤其 4.7。"

"But I think otherwise MCP is kind of the answer. All this stuff just doesn't matter that much — it could be MCPs, APIs, just some sort of programmatic access. The model doesn't care. To the model, it's just tokens."

"其余情况 MCP 就是答案。其实这些都不那么重要——MCP、API、任何程序化的访问方式——模型不在乎。对模型来说就是 token。"

"All right, we have time for one more question. Ryan."

"好,我们还能再问最后一个问题。Ryan。"

"You've kind of alluded to this, but if sometime ago you saw the product overhang and thought to build a product that would become more interesting once models got better — could you just talk even in vague terms about the shape of a product you'd build today that you think could become much more interesting as models get better in 6 months to a year?"

"你刚才有提到——你之前看到 product overhang,所以做了一个会随模型变好而变得更有趣的产品。能不能说说——如果今天再做一个,'随着接下来 6 个月到 1 年模型变好会变得更有趣'的产品长什么样?哪怕只是模糊的描述。"

"Yeah, Claude design I think is a really good example. It's pretty good today. It's going to get a lot better."

"嗯,Claude design 是个好例子。今天就挺不错,接下来会大幅变好。"

"There's also a few things that we're cooking up for Claude Code that are going to be landing over the coming weeks. So you'll see those."

"我们还在为 Claude Code 做几个东西,接下来几周会上线——你们会看到。"

"And then I think loop and batch and things like this around like massively parallelizing agents — that's going to get better. And computer use is another good one."

"然后我觉得 loop、batch 这类围绕'大规模并行 agent'的东西会变得更好。computer use 也是。"

"All right, Boris. Thank you so much for joining us. I think we'll be here for a little longer if anyone has questions."

"好的 Boris,非常感谢你来。我们再留一会儿,如果谁还有问题。"

"Thanks, guys."

"谢谢大家。"