The State of Foundation Models

"I think university is not the best place to learn."

"我觉得大学不是学东西最好的地方。"

"Doesn't matter what you're studying."

"不管你学什么。"

"I'd invest in Grok, and I would probably short Anthropic."

"如果让我投,我会投 Grok——我大概率会做空 Anthropic。"

"No, I would short."

"不,我就是会做空。"

"Why? I think it's more the slope on the Grok team."

"为什么?我觉得更多是 Grok 团队的 slope(斜率)。"

"They're doing something which I respect a lot — which is to hire missionaries for the data curation part."

"他们在做一件我非常尊重的事——为数据 curation 招的是 missionary(信徒)。"

"The morale is super high."

"团队士气非常高。"

"OpenAI has gone through all this mess."

"OpenAI 自己经历了那一整套混乱。"

"Do you think there will be one [from China]?"

"你觉得会不会有一个[出自中国]?"

"Yes. From China."

"会。来自中国。"

"Do you worry about China?"

"你担心中国吗?"

"I do think there's like a 50/50 chance they will have the best model."

"我真的觉得有大概 50/50 的概率——中国会有最好的模型。"

"We'll be using a Chinese model at some point. Ready to go."

"我们总有一天会接入中国模型。Lovable 已经准备好了。"

"Anton, dude, I'm so excited to be here with you in person."

"Anton,兄弟,亲自和你坐一起——我超激动。"

"Thank you so much for joining me on the show."

"非常感谢你来上节目。"

"It's great to see you, and thanks for coming to Stockholm."

"见到你太好了——也谢谢你专程来 Stockholm。"

"Dude, it's great to be in Stockholm."

"兄弟,能在 Stockholm 太爽了。"

"I want to start — you just recently raised a great round, and I want to start with that."

"我想从这开始——你最近刚 close 了一轮非常好的融资,我想从这聊起。"

"We're seeing a lot of money going into the space — is AI an arms race, or just a talent war?"

"现在有大量资金涌入 AI——这到底是 arms race(军备竞赛),还是 talent war(人才战)?"

"I think it's an arms race to build the best team."

"我认为这是一场建立最强团队的军备竞赛。"

"And then it's an arms race to build the best brand and trust from your users."

"然后是一场建立最强品牌和用户信任的军备竞赛。"

"Capital can help. For us, it's not a constraint at all."

"资本能帮忙——但对我们来说,资本根本不是 constraint。"

"If you're building something like the best foundation model, capital matters a lot more."

"如果你在做"最好的 foundation model"那种事——资本权重就大得多。"

"For me, it's actually more difficult than for Zuck to know which engineers are going to really thrive."

"对我来说——判断"哪些工程师真的会爆发"——其实比 Zuck 更难。"

"Push the culture forward, push the ways of working in the products forward."

"能不能推动文化、能不能推动产品里的工作方式——这些都要看人。"

"For Zuck, it's like there's these 10 people that know everything."

"对 Zuck 来说——基础模型这条线上,世界上就那 10 个人懂全部。"

"You just need a very different type of talent."

"我们要的是完全另一种 talent。"

"Do you think you do not need the same caliber of engineering talent if you're working in the application layer?"

"你的意思是——在应用层做产品,不需要同等量级的工程师?"

"You just need very different."

"是需要非常不同的人。"

"The people that Zuck is hiring — they wouldn't perform as well as the engineers in my team doing what we're doing."

"Zuck 在挖的那些人——把他们放到我们团队里干我们这事——表现不会比我们现在的工程师好。"

"It's very different type of talent."

"这是非常不同种类的 talent。"

"Being serious — I think not enough people are opinionated."

"认真说——我觉得现在有观点的人不够多。"

"You said brand is important. Great brands are opinionated — people love them or hate them."

"你说品牌很重要。好品牌都是有观点的——要么爱要么恨。"

"Lovable. Good example."

"Lovable。好例子。"

"What is yours that is non-obvious about hiring or talent assessment?"

"那你的——关于招人或者评估 talent——非显然的看法是什么?"

"I like to think a lot about slope."

"我经常想 slope(斜率)这件事。"

"If I talk to someone and I learn a lot of things from them — and I notice my conversation is very dynamic and exciting — that usually feels like a very good indicator."

"如果我跟一个人聊——能从他那学到很多东西——发现对话很有张力、很激动人心——这通常是个好指标。"

"I still operate Lovable in a very scrappy startup-y way, even though we're at the later growth stage right now."

"我现在运营 Lovable 的方式还是非常 scrappy、非常创业公司——尽管我们已经到了 later growth 阶段。"

"Adding a bit more structure in a few key areas — that's somewhere I'm looking to progress."

"在几个关键领域加一点结构——这是我接下来想推进的方向。"

"Do you think you actually need that?"

"你真的需要结构这种东西吗?"

"We've had Founder Mode be so propagated and praised — being close to the metal, Jensen having 52 direct reports."

"现在大家都在传播和吹捧 Founder Mode——离一线近、Jensen 自己带 52 个直接下属。"

"I would say structure and that middle layer is where slowness and apathy comes from."

"我会说,结构和中层——正是变慢和冷漠的来源。"

"Do you think you need that?"

"你觉得你需要吗?"

"That's a good question."

"好问题。"

"I think I'm going to always operate with most of my impact coming from Founder Mode."

"我大概率永远会运营成"我的影响主要来自 Founder Mode"。"

"But given that there's so many things thrown at me from all the different directions, I do need to have some kind of layer."

"但因为现在从四面八方扑过来的事情太多了,我确实需要某种 layer。"

"Do you have a protective layer today?"

"你今天有那一层保护层吗?"

"Because I get probably 25 intro requests for you a week, and I probably make one a month."

"因为我每周大概收到 25 个找你引荐的请求——我每月大概只引荐一次。"

"Do you have someone who does filter?"

"你有人在帮你过滤吗?"

"Yeah, I do."

"有,我有。"

"It's a kind of wonderful, chaotic protective layer that works together as a close team."

"那是一种很美妙、又很混乱的保护层——一群人作为紧密的小团队一起运作。"

"I don't really have a name for it — it's just the people working closely with me."

"我都没给它取个名字——就是和我紧密工作的那些人。"

"So you said talent was number one and brand was number two."

"你说 talent 是第一,brand 是第二。"

"If we think about great brand — what does great brand mean to you?"

"那"好品牌"在你心里到底是什么?"

"A super concrete example is the Apple ecosystem."

"一个非常具体的例子是 Apple 生态。"

"They obsess about details — maybe too much, so they move slowly — but that's what builds up trust and a very strong brand."

"他们对细节痴迷——也许过头了,所以走得慢——但这就是信任和强品牌的来源。"

"There's a couple of questions which everyone has — they'll throw them as a critique at Lovable or at anyone in the space."

"有几个问题大家都会问——经常作为 critique 砸向 Lovable 或这个赛道里的任何人。"

"One is protection — defensibility."

"一个是 protection——defensibility(护城河)。"

"When you think about defensibility today, is brand the core element — or is there something that people do not see?"

"你今天怎么想 defensibility?品牌是核心吗?还是有什么大家没看到的?"

"I think you need to build a product where, if you're on this product and the platform, you don't really want to leave."

"我觉得你要造一个产品——用户上来之后,不愿意离开。"

"Would you say to all founders building an AI startup — from day one, don't worry about defensibility, it comes over time?"

"你会对所有做 AI 创业的 founder 说——第 0 天别担心护城河,它会随时间来吗?"

"Yes. Great question."

"对。好问题。"

"I have a friend who has this fun analog: AI startups are like chickens shot out of a cannon up in the sky."

"我有个朋友有个有趣的类比:AI 创业就像被炮弹射上天的鸡。"

"If you start getting traction, then it's all about flapping fast as a chicken — because there are new chickens being shot out behind you."

"一旦有 traction 了,你要做的就是拼命扑腾翅膀——因为后面还有一堆鸡被射上来。"

"My recommendation is just: execute fast, grow faster."

"我的建议就是:执行得快,长得更快。"

"When you start to get up there, you can maybe start thinking about defensibility."

"等你飞起来了——再开始想 defensibility。"

"Totally get you."

"完全 get。"

"Another criticism — when people look at these businesses, your Replits, your Bolts, your Lovables — they're not actually very good businesses in terms of unit economics."

"另一个 critique 是——大家看 Replit、Bolt、Lovable 这些——单位经济其实不漂亮。"

"So much is passed through."

"成本基本都是 passed through(直接传给上游)。"

"I won't give you the exact numbers — but if you look at the paid usage, the majority is profit."

"具体数字我不给——但你看付费 usage,大头是利润。"

"It's not everything."

"不是 100%,但大头是。"

"How does that change over time?"

"这随时间会怎么变?"

"As our business develops, we're looking to get most of our revenue from users who say "I love this platform, I'm never leaving"."

"业务发展之后,我们希望主要收入来自那些说"我爱这个平台,绝不离开"的用户。"

"Today it's only like — in the beginning you're paying to build pretty much."

"今天还不是这样——今天的状态是,你主要是在为"造东西"付费。"

"Over time we just want to create so much value that you stay on the subscription."

"我们想做的是——长期创造足够多价值,让你愿意留在 subscription 上。"

"As all applications develop, the AI is going to be adapted to those applications."

"所有应用发展下去,AI 会适配到具体应用里。"

"For most things, it's super simple — like you're driving a car and you're not thinking about what you're doing."

"大部分场景超简单——就像你开车,根本不会想自己在做什么。"

"When you're in a new situation driving a car, then you start thinking."

"只有遇到新情况你才会"开始动脑子"。"

"That's really interesting. So you build for what tomorrow's model can do, not what we have today."

"这点很有意思。所以你是为"明天的模型能做什么"造产品,不是为今天有的造。"

"Yeah, to quite a large extent, yes."

"是,很大程度上是这样。"

"When I think about models — they're the models that are very thoughtful and deep thinking."

"我想模型这件事的时候——指的是那种很深思、能 deep thinking 的模型。"

"Now we put as much work on those models. In the future it's going to be a mix — when it's obvious what you should do, use a faster model."

"现在我们把活都堆在这种模型上。未来会是混合——明显该做什么的事用快模型。"

"One other area where you can see real margin expansion is also in token selling."

"另一个能看到真正 margin 扩张的地方是 token 转售。"

"When you think about how you price tokens — prosumers and consumers don't fundamentally know the price of tokens."

"想想你怎么给 token 定价——prosumer 和 consumer 其实不知道 token 真实价格。"

"You can actually have quite a considerable markup on token usage."

"你完全可以在 token 用量上加相当可观的 markup。"

"Do you think that is a place of real elasticity to gain margin?"

"你觉得这里有 margin 的真实弹性吗?"

"Yeah. We looked at this number a few months ago — how much revenue is flowing through the AI from Lovable applications."

"对。几个月前我们看过一个数——从 Lovable 上的应用流向 AI 的收入有多少。"

"It was more than $10 million in ARR."

"超过 $10M ARR。"

"All of that revenue needs the user to go through a bit complex process of setting things up."

"所有这部分收入,用户都要走一个有点复杂的配置流程。"

"How do you think about mental plasticity to delay margin optimization?"

"你怎么想"延迟优化 margin"所需要的心理弹性?"

"Mental plasticity — what?"

"心理弹性?啥?"

"The willingness to wait for margins to come."

"愿意等 margin 慢慢长出来。"

"If you look at Deliveroo, margins of [bleep] in the early days — over time they get better as you have more density, more orders in small areas."

"看 Deliveroo,早期 margin 一塌糊涂——随时间慢慢变好,密度大、单区订单多。"

"How long does one think before you're thinking margin optimization?"

"在你开始想 margin 优化之前——大概要多久?"

"I have these two conflicting perspectives."

"我自己有两个矛盾的看法。"

"One is — I speak to Nick who built Revolut, and he tells me: Anton, you need to compute the payback time, and you need to do super hard performance optimization."

"一个是——我跟 Nick(Revolut 创始人)聊,他说:Anton,你得算 payback time,然后必须狠狠优化 performance。"

"It's so funny. I think it's absolutely number two."

"挺好笑的。我觉得这绝对是第二件事。"

"And then number three is NYX — incredible performance optimization, really understanding funnel metrics from CAC to LTV, how you drive efficiency through the channels."

"第三件事是 NYX——极致的 performance 优化、真正理解从 CAC 到 LTV 的漏斗指标、怎么在各个渠道里压榨效率。"

"And do you know what's ironic — you kind of then go back after that stage to an art, which is where Nick is now."

"你知道讽刺的是什么吗——过了那个阶段,你又回到了一种"艺术",Nick 现在就在这——"

"We've done that so well we have to sponsor race cars — because brand again becomes the most important thing."

"——我们这事做得太好了,以至于要赞助赛车——因为品牌又一次变成最重要的事。"

"If you can do everything at once, the company benefits a lot — but you usually can't. You should be focused."

"如果你能同时做所有事,公司收益巨大——但你通常做不到。你应该聚焦。"

"What would you most like to do now that you're not doing or can't do?"

"现在最想做但还没做、或者做不了的事是什么?"

"I would like to rethink how applications are built — what is the best way to build an application."

"我想重新想一遍——应用到底应该怎么造、什么是造应用的最好方式。"

"What Lovable does now is it takes all the best practices from decades of how a great software product is built."

"Lovable 现在做的事是——拿过去几十年怎么造一个好软件的所有 best practice。"

"But that's not how the future is going to look like."

"但未来不会长这样。"

"There's going to be an AI engineer that builds the future of applications."

"未来会有一个 AI engineer——它来造未来的应用。"

"On margin optimization — when we look at the model providers, you have to have that mental plasticity."

"回到 margin 优化——看模型供应商这一层,你必须有那种心理弹性。"

"We saw OpenAI kind of suggest or proffer Lovable-style competitors."

"我们看到 OpenAI 在某种程度上扶持/隐示了类 Lovable 的竞争对手。"

"Who do you worry more about — OpenAI doing it or Anthropic doing it?"

"你更担心谁做这事——OpenAI 还是 Anthropic?"

"What we're betting on is to be the gateway for humans — the best user experience for AI."

"我们押的是——做"通向 AI 的人类入口"——做 AI 的最好用户体验。"

"So far, OpenAI is doing that better than Anthropic."

"到目前为止,OpenAI 在这事上比 Anthropic 做得更好。"

"So I see them as a more serious competitor in 12 months."

"所以未来 12 个月,我会把 OpenAI 看成更严重的对手。"

"How did you analyze GPT-5?"

"你怎么分析 GPT-5?"

"When you look at performance post, are you more or less bullish on OpenAI?"

"你看完 performance 之后,对 OpenAI 是更看好还是更不看好?"

"We looked a lot at how GPT-5 would impact our users before we decided to put it into the product."

"在决定把 GPT-5 接进产品之前,我们看了大量"它会怎么影响用户"的分析。"

"We looked at how long it took to get responses."

"我们看了响应时间。"

"We looked at our qualitative and quantitative evals — and then we just vibe-checked it."

"我们看了 qual 和 quant 的 eval——然后做了 vibe check。"

"That's why we decided: hey, this is very smart, let's give it to all our users and see what they tell us."

"所以我们决定:这玩意挺聪明,给所有用户用,看他们怎么说。"

"What we found was: for the use cases when you have to solve a really really hard problem, it's great."

"我们发现:碰到那种特别难的问题——它很强。"

"There's also a question of: when you set the bar at AGI, then you get model optimization and model routing — which is essentially what it is."

"还有个问题——当你把 bar 设在 AGI——你拿到的就是 model optimization 和 model routing——本质上就是这个。"

"Capability-wise, it hasn't been a step function improvement on what we had before."

"能力上,它跟我们之前有的相比——并不是 step function 级的提升。"

"No, I don't think the biggest part of GPT-5 that's disappointing is just that now they have to optimize all these different things into one model."

"对,我觉得 GPT-5 最让人失望的部分——是他们现在不得不把"所有这些不同的东西"优化进一个模型。"

"Before, it was like different models and they had to do it really hard."

"以前是不同的模型分别做——现在硬塞进一个。"

"How do you use OpenAI versus Anthropic within Lovable today?"

"今天 Lovable 内部怎么分用 OpenAI 和 Anthropic?"

"We have this very complex agentic chain where we pass the user's response and the application information through many different models."

"我们有一条很复杂的 agentic chain——把用户的回复和应用信息穿过许多不同的模型。"

"We take really fast and small ones — and for code writing, we usually use a frontier model."

"路由里用很多又快又小的模型——写代码的部分,通常用 frontier model。"

"Super. And you've seen it be better than Anthropic when it comes to a hard debugging problem?"

"棒。你看到过它在 hard debugging 问题上比 Anthropic 更强吗?"

"Yeah."

"对。"

"What do models not do today that would be a step function change in what Lovable can do?"

"今天模型做不到的、但一旦能做就会让 Lovable 阶跃的事——是什么?"

"Something I'm super excited about is the AI having more context about who they're talking to, and how they should be answering."

"我特别期待的一件事是——AI 对"它在跟谁说话""它该怎么回应"有更多 context。"

"To guide them through our specific application."

"带他们走完我们这个特定应用的流程。"

"Solving that problem is something we have to do — both with how we build this agentic chain, and over time by paying $100 million for the people that train the models."

"解决这个问题是我们必须做的事——既靠 agentic chain 怎么搭——也要靠之后花 $100M 去挖训模型的人。"

"So that's on the horizon for us."

"所以这是我们 horizon 上的事。"

"People do everything with Lovable."

"用户用 Lovable 做各种事。"

"They come with their idea to build a software business and product."

"带着一个软件生意/产品的 idea 来。"

"There's a lot of people in large companies who use it as: now I can show what I actually think we should build, and then they build it."

"大厂里也有很多人用它来做"我能展示我真正想造的是什么",然后造出来。"

"The second segment is growing very fast because enterprises are slower to wake up."

"第二个人群增长非常快——因为企业醒得慢。"

"You might have seen this product leader from Google who said: we're never again writing a document about a product, we have to use Lovable or something to do it."

"你可能看到 Google 一个产品负责人说过——我们再也不会写一份关于"应该造什么产品"的文档了——我们必须用 Lovable 这类工具来做。"

"So 80% is actually building complex apps, 10% enterprise, 10% hobbyists?"

"所以 80% 是在做复杂应用——10% 企业,10% hobbyist?"

"Something like that. Yeah."

"大概是这样,对。"

"We want to build for the new generation of AI-native founders that build maybe one-person unicorns soon."

"我们想为新一代 AI 原生 founder 造产品——他们很快会做出"一个人的独角兽"。"

"And the funny thing is — those people also have jobs in large successful companies, and they want to help their friends and family."

"有意思的是——这些人现在还在大厂里上班——他们也想帮朋友和家人造点东西。"

"Our mission is to enable a lot of people who have the opportunity to build businesses, but have been held back by not being able to write code and not having capital to hire engineers."

"我们的 mission 是赋能一大批本有机会创业、但被"不会写代码 + 没钱招工程师"卡住的人。"

"We should have a Lovable holiday fund."

"我们应该搞一个 Lovable holiday fund。"

"Every year, we pay the most talented people within large enterprises for a week's holiday."

"每年——我们出钱给大厂里最有 talent 的人放一周假。"

"Then they build their business — they just use Lovable for the week."

"他们用这一周时间——只用 Lovable——把自己的生意搭起来。"

"And after the week — they quit their job."

"一周过完——他们辞职。"

"I think it'd be the funnest thing ever."

"我觉得这会是有史以来最好玩的事。"

"Let me expand on the business thinking."

"再展开一下生意上的思考。"

"I think many of the largest businesses haven't been started yet today."

"我觉得未来最大的那些生意——今天都还没有开始。"

"Now with AI, you can move so fast — much faster, closer to your customers, drive price down."

"有了 AI,你可以跑得非常快——更快、更贴用户、把价格打下来。"

"I'm super grateful for you taking my money — but the number one reason I would invest in Lovable is because the TAM expansion is actually incomprehensible."

"我超感激你愿意要我的钱——但我投 Lovable 的第一原因是——这个 TAM 扩张是不可理解的大。"

"It's very much like Uber — you could never have foreseen the market expansion that would take place."

"非常像 Uber——你当初根本不可能预见到市场会扩到那么大。"

"On the enterprise use case — if I was a CEO or CTO of a large enterprise, I wouldn't think: how can we make our engineers more productive?"

"说说企业 use case——如果我是一家大厂的 CEO 或 CTO——我不会想"怎么让工程师更高产"。"

"I would think: how can we get the most information about what we should build?"

"我会想:怎么获取"我们到底应该造什么"的信息?"

"It also allows for incredible democratization of ideas within companies."

"这件事还让公司内部的 idea 大幅民主化。"

"I interviewed the CPO at Duolingo for 20product — he said how two designers, not traditionally the ones who build products, created Chess in Duolingo."

"我在 20product 采访 Duolingo 的 CPO——他说,两个设计师——传统上不是负责造产品的人——做出了 Duolingo 里的 Chess。"

"To date, what you've done is: you take an idea, then go through many many steps until it's a fully fast-growing product."

"到今天为止——你做的是:有一个 idea,经过好多好多步,直到它成为一个快速增长的产品。"

"I call that the product life cycle."

"我管这个叫 product life cycle。"

"One part of it is writing the code — where AI now has made it much faster."

"其中一部分是写代码——AI 让这部分快了很多。"

"The steps after or before — what I mean is: at the other end of the spectrum you see Figma doing Figma Make."

"前后那些步骤——我的意思是——光谱另一端你看到 Figma 在做 Figma Make。"

"They're like: we'll always have the design process, and then we'll move with you into the second phase — build or prototype."

"他们的说法是:我们永远会有 design 阶段——然后再带你进入第二阶段:build 或 prototype。"

"Humans are sometimes too obsessed with small details being perfect — which makes you move slower."

"人有时候太执着于把小细节做完美——这让你跑得慢。"

"The way of doing it right now with the design — Lovable is moving past that."

"现在跟设计相关的做法——Lovable 在跨过这一层。"

"It does. What happens to Figma then?"

"对。那 Figma 会怎样?"

"For some pixel-perfect things, it's going to be amazing to continue to use Figma."

"对某些需要 pixel-perfect 的东西——继续用 Figma 会很棒。"

"I don't know how the distribution will look — between doing it in a more opinionated way (which our platform is becoming) versus how many companies want to continue doing it the old way."

"我不知道分布会长什么样——一边是更"有观点"的做法(Lovable 这个方向),一边是多少公司想继续用旧方式。"

"Do you think you're opinionated enough?"

"你觉得 Lovable 现在"有观点"够强了吗?"

"Our tool enables a lot of flexibility, at the cost of some velocity on our product development."

"我们的工具允许很大灵活性——代价是我们产品开发的 velocity 慢一点。"

"But I think it's a pretty good sweet spot."

"但我觉得这是个不错的 sweet spot。"

"You can build with Lovable, and then any engineer can come in and edit and take over."

"你用 Lovable 搭起来——然后任何工程师都能进来编辑、接手。"

"What are you not opinionated on that you would like to be in a dream world?"

"理想情况下,有什么你"还没那么有观点"但希望有的事?"

"In a dream world, we would be even more opinionated about how you build an application."

"理想世界里——我们会对"应用应该怎么造"更有观点。"

"We would know what's the future of building applications with AI being such a core part of it."

"我们会知道"AI 是核心的应用未来"长什么样。"

"I don't think it's possible — because the models are still in flux."

"但我觉得现在做不到——因为模型还在变。"

"Do you think we will prompt in five years' time?"

"5 年后我们还会"prompt"吗?"

"Yes, I think so. But maybe it will evolve in how you do it."

"会。但形式会变。"

"Hyper-personalization takes care of a lot of detailed prompting that we have to do today."

"超个性化会自动处理掉今天我们要做的很多细节 prompting。"

"Prompting is basically providing context to an AI about what your goals are and how you want to do something."

"Prompting 本质就是——给 AI 提供 context——你的目标是什么、你想怎么做。"

"It's like when you have great employees — they know everything about how you want it to work."

"就像你有特别好的员工——他们知道你想要东西怎么运转。"

"You just have to say "let's go to Stockholm and do an interview" — and they handle the rest."

"你只需说"我们去 Stockholm 录个采访"——剩下的他们都搞定。"

"You can either prompt very detailed, or you can make sure it knows how you think."

"要么你 prompt 得非常细——要么你确保它了解你怎么思考。"

"That's what we'll be evolving towards."

"未来会朝后者演化。"

"Dude, I love your social media presence — you're opinionated, respectfully, but also quite blunt."

"兄弟,我超喜欢你的社交媒体表达——有观点,也很直接。"

"You've been opinionated in how you talk about competition — specifically like a Replit of the world."

"你在谈竞争对手——比如 Replit——的方式上也很有观点。"

"How do you think about whether or not to engage in an opinionated stance against competition?"

"你怎么决定"要不要对竞争对手摆出观点"?"

"I don't think so much about competition."

"我其实不怎么想竞争这件事。"

"The only thing that matters is that we make our product the best product and continue to deliver on our value promises to our customers."

"唯一重要的事是——把产品做成最好的产品,持续兑现我们对用户的 value promise。"

"It's wrong for Replit to bash Lovable. It's wrong for Lovable to bash Replit."

"Replit 黑 Lovable 不对——Lovable 黑 Replit 也不对。"

"All of you guys suck at security. Is that true?"

"你们这些公司在安全上都很烂。是这样吗?"

"Yes. Let me say it a different way."

"对。换个说法。"

"We talk about security company-wide every week — every day I hear something about security because we take it so seriously."

"我们每周全公司层面都在聊 security——我每天都听到 security 相关的事——我们极度重视。"

"There's so many different fronts."

"涉及的战线非常多。"

"If you take your average developer who normally works in a large team where they have a lot of support — and then that human goes out and builds an application."

"想想一个普通开发者——他在大团队里有很多支持——现在让他独自出去做一个应用。"

"They are going to make security mistakes."

"他一定会犯安全方面的错。"

"When you build an application with Lovable, it's going to tell you to go through a bunch of security reviews."

"用 Lovable 造应用,它会让你过一堆 security review。"

"The AI is going to do a bunch of security reviews, and finally it's going to give you green light — we haven't found any security issues."

"AI 自己会跑一堆 security review,最后给你绿灯——没发现安全问题。"

"Humans have the potential to be hung-over, high, malfunctioning in some way — actually wildly dangerous."

"人有可能宿醉、嗨、各种状态崩——其实很危险。"

"And [AI is] much, much better."

"AI 在这事上比人好太多。"

"Very much so, yeah."

"非常对,是。"

"I'm very proud of what the team has done so far with security — but there's more to come."

"团队到目前为止在 security 上做的事我非常自豪——但后面还有更多要做。"

"We've spoken about many different competitors — from Figmas to Replits. If you move forward three years, what does the space look like?"

"我们聊了很多对手——从 Figma 到 Replit。3 年后这个赛道会是什么样?"

"I focus on what our product does and how we serve our customers best — I don't really predict."

"我聚焦在产品本身、聚焦在怎么最好服务用户——不做预测。"

"If we get the majority of the profit share in this market — amazing. If it's spread across different players — also fine."

"如果我们拿下大头利润——很棒。分散在不同玩家手上——也行。"

"This is why brand is so important for you."

"这就是为什么 brand 对你这么重要。"

"That's how I think about it."

"我就是这么想的。"

"Do you mind if devs go to Lovable, get 60% of the code from there, and then fine-tune it elsewhere?"

"开发者来 Lovable 拿 60% 的代码,然后去别的地方继续打磨——你介意吗?"

"Two years ago, I decided I'm going to build Lovable for a world where humans don't write code anymore."

"2 年前我就决定——Lovable 是为"人类不再写代码"的世界造的。"

"And we're quickly moving there."

"我们正在快速往那走。"

"Today I don't mind at all — it should work."

"今天我完全不介意——它就该可以这么用。"

"Today — does AI make 1x engineers 10x, or does it make 10x engineers 100x?"

"今天——AI 是把 1x 工程师变成 10x,还是把 10x 工程师变成 100x?"

"It does both. It really does both."

"两个都做。真的两个都做。"

"For junior engineers, 1x engineers — they're often bad at something."

"对 junior 工程师——1x 工程师——他们通常某方面不行。"

"If the AI can bridge that gap, it takes them from zero to one — they're able to do something they weren't able to do before. That's like a 10x — they go to 10x."

"如果 AI 能补上那道 gap——他们从 0 变成 1——能做以前做不到的事。这就是 10x——他们变成 10x 工程师。"

"How will the size of engineering teams change in the next 5 years?"

"未来 5 年工程团队的规模会怎么变?"

"For the best companies, engineers will really act as this translation layer."

"对最强的公司——工程师会更像一个"翻译层"。"

"They will need to think more in terms of product, being a product manager."

"他们要更多地按"产品"和"PM"的方式思考。"

"I think there's a higher elasticity on such engineers — so you might have larger engineering teams, not smaller."

"这种工程师的弹性更高——所以工程团队规模可能更大,而不是更小。"

"The skills required to be a good engineer change with time."

"成为一个好工程师所需要的技能,会随时间变。"

"Being a generalist becomes more and more important — so that you can understand how things come together as a larger system."

"做 generalist 变得越来越重要——这样你能理解所有东西怎么组成一个更大的系统。"

"Would you encourage your children to go to university?"

"你会鼓励你的孩子上大学吗?"

"This is now 20 years in the future, pretty much."

"这是 20 年后的事了基本。"

"It's hard to say something about 20 years in the future."

"20 年后的事很难说。"

"I think it's a great experience to have had in life. So why not? But it depends on what outcome you want to reach."

"我觉得这是人生中很好的体验,为什么不呢?但要看你想到达什么。"

"In the UK, in particular, we just get very drunk for three years."

"在 UK,尤其,我们就是连喝三年酒。"

"That's generally how it is — generally study generalist subjects like geography and history."

"基本上就是这样——学的也是 geography、history 这些通识科目。"

"Honestly it is a little bit of a waste of time — you can utilize those years so much better given your stamina, your energy, the plasticity of your brain."

"老实说有点浪费时间——以你那时的精力、体力、大脑可塑性,完全可以更好地利用这几年。"

"Which is why I highly advocate against it."

"所以我强烈反对上大学这事。"

"Agree. If you just do a very very specialized job for those years, maybe you'll become less of a generalist — there's a trade-off."

"同意。如果你那几年做特别专的工作,可能你 generalist 这一面会弱——有 trade-off。"

"At university, you're exposed to many different concepts, which helps."

"大学的优势是接触很多不同概念,这是有帮助的。"

"You see this in banking — a bank is a software company, it's all about software systems."

"你能在银行业看到这一点——一家银行就是软件公司——全是软件系统。"

"The old banks are moving much slower."

"传统老银行跑得慢得多。"

"If they're not enabled, there's someone else that comes in and is enabled."

"如果他们没赋能起来——总会有别人冲进来,被赋能。"

"How loyal do you think Lovable users and customers are?"

"你觉得 Lovable 的用户和客户有多 loyal?"

"High propensity to switch? Or fundamentally loyal?"

"切换倾向高?还是本质上忠诚?"

"It's 50/50."

"50/50。"

"Some people are super super loyal to a brand."

"有些人对品牌极其忠诚。"

"If you do something that hurts your brand, they will switch — many people are out there looking to maximize some kind of cost versus capabilities."

"如果你做了伤害品牌的事——他们会切走——很多人始终在那找"成本 vs 能力"的最大化。"

"What question should large CEOs and business leaders be asking today about the future of AI and their companies — that they're not asking?"

"大公司 CEO 和业务负责人今天关于"AI + 自己公司未来"应该问、但没在问的问题是什么?"

"Bluntly, dude, I get really fed up with everyone saying that Europeans are about espresso and take the summer."

"老实说,我特别烦那种"欧洲人就是浓缩咖啡 + 度夏天"的论调。"

"It's August and July, we're not going to work."

""7、8 月份我们不上班。""

"I advocate for a very aggressive work culture — 996 — and how I work."

"我倡导很激进的工作文化——996——我自己也是这样工作的。"

"How do you feel about the importance of unwavering hard work over balance in the desire to win?"

"在"想赢"这件事上,你怎么看"无条件努力 vs balance"?"

"Over a 10-year period I would advocate for some balance."

"10 年尺度上,我会倡导一点 balance。"

"But over a two-year period, if you really care about something, you should go all in."

"但 2 年尺度上——如果你真在乎一件事——就应该 all in。"

"You do the keepers test."

"你做 keepers test(留人测试)。"

"Has it made you change how you construct teams?"

"这事改变了你搭团队的方式吗?"

"It always makes it clear to people: how can I have more impact?"

"它让每个人都清晰一件事——我怎么能产出更多 impact?"

"You mentioned Nick earlier at Revolut. He gave me the best answer I think ever on culture."

"你刚提到 Revolut 的 Nick——他给过我关于文化的最好答案。"

"He said: if I create the conditions to win, you will grow and develop."

"他说:如果我创造让你"赢"的条件——你自然会成长、会发展。"

"And the other thing people like to do is accumulate wealth as well as development."

"另一件人们想要的事是——积累财富 + 个人发展。"

"You will accumulate that by winning, because of your share price increase."

"通过"赢",你会积累财富——因为股价会涨。"

"It's a good quote. If we win, everyone will be happy."

"好金句。如果我们赢——所有人都会开心。"

"There's very few places where they're losing every day, day in day out, and blissfully happy. It doesn't happen."

"几乎没有任何地方,是日复一日在输、还能幸福地开心的——这种事不存在。"

"What's not great about your culture today, if you could change it?"

"如果能改——今天你们文化里哪点不够好?"

"There's a certain personality type that takes a lot of initiative, very excited about new ideas and novel things."

"有一种 personality——主动性强,对新 idea、新事物超兴奋。"

"As your company matures, that's still an important ingredient — but you need the cowboy vs farmer balance."

"公司成熟之后,这种人还很重要——但你需要"牛仔 vs 农民"的平衡。"

"A farmer optimizes things for the long term."

"农民优化的是长期。"

"We can do a bit more of that — optimizing things for the long term."

"我们可以多做一点这事——为长期做优化。"

"I actually prefer the optimize-for-the-short-term."

"我自己其实更偏好"为短期优化"。"

"Have you spent much time with Chinese development teams? They are unbelievable in their psychology and speed."

"你跟中国的研发团队接触过吗?他们的心态和速度都很恐怖。"

"That's often how they're able to do so much so fast."

"这就是他们能做这么多、跑这么快的原因。"

"If you have super clear product-market fit and a brand to defend — you cannot stick everything on speed."

"如果你已经有超明确的 PMF + 要保护的品牌——你不能把所有东西都堆在 speed 上。"

"You can do that in sprints to move to innovation."

"你可以分成 sprint,用来推创新。"

"Why do you think it's better to build in Europe?"

"为什么你觉得在欧洲建公司更好?"

"There are many good things about Europe. There are also things that are better in the US."

"欧洲有很多好处。也有些事美国更好。"

"I mostly think: I want to prove that you can build a generational product, a generational company team, from Europe."

"我主要想的是——我想证明,从欧洲可以做出一家有时代标志意义的公司、一支有时代标志意义的团队。"

"Hard mode is: the network isn't as great — fewer individuals and companies who have context for the different stages of building an amazing multinational company."

"hard mode 是——网络不够强——经历过多国大公司各阶段的"个人 + 公司"数量更少。"

"Completely agree. There are no Elena Verns in Europe."

"完全同意。欧洲没有 Elena Verna 那种人。"

"Yeah, very few. Maybe we'll get there soon."

"对,很少。也许我们很快会有。"

"Access to capital, people that will quickly give you distribution and brand — that's hard mode."

"资本入口、能马上给你 distribution 和 brand 的人——这些是 hard mode。"

"There's so much money in Europe — it's not a bottleneck for us."

"欧洲钱多得很——这不是我们的 bottleneck。"

"You're going to start to see Lovable spinouts — anyone who leaves Lovable will get a term sheet straight away."

"你很快会看到 Lovable 的 spinout——从 Lovable 出来的人立马拿到 term sheet。"

"It's easier to get distribution and be on the center world stage in San Francisco and New York."

"在 SF 和纽约——拿 distribution、站在世界舞台中心——更容易。"

"But we've been able to pull that off from Stockholm — a good proof that you can do it from here."

"但我们从 Stockholm 也做到了——这就是"从这里可以做到"的证明。"

"We are the biggest talent magnet in Stockholm right now — which is amazing."

"我们现在是 Stockholm 最大的 talent 磁铁——这件事很棒。"

"It's much more difficult to be that in San Francisco or New York."

"在 SF 或 NY 做这件事要难得多。"

"So we can pick up all the underutilized talent and shape their lives."

"我们能把所有还没被充分使用的 talent 拢过来,改变他们的人生。"

"You have inherently higher churn in the Valley."

"硅谷天生 churn 更高。"

"When you have a bad day, OpenAI offers you a bigger package — you leave."

"哪天心情不好,OpenAI 开一个更大的 package——你就走了。"

"That prevents the compounding of knowledge within teams — which I think is so valuable."

"这就阻止了团队内部的知识复利——而我觉得知识复利非常宝贵。"

"Did you ever think about moving?"

"你想过搬走吗?"

"Yes. When I was about to start the company, everyone was telling me I should go to SF."

"想过。准备创业的时候,所有人都让我去 SF。"

"But we just kept building, and we found some great people in Stockholm — so we kept building from here."

"但我们一直在做,在 Stockholm 找到了很好的人——就一直在这里做。"

"What did you do in the Lovable journey — with the benefit of hindsight — that you wish you hadn't done?"

"Lovable 这一路——回头看——你希望没做的事是什么?"

"When we started, the vision was very clear — the sequencing was not."

"我们开始的时候——愿景很清晰——但顺序不清楚。"

"We had this open-source community excited about a tool I made a few months before we started the company."

"我们有个 open-source 社区——他们对我创业前几个月做的工具很兴奋。"

"In hindsight, we should have scrapped that and been super super focused."

"回头看——我们应该砍掉那部分,专心到极致。"

"What is the bottleneck that you'll be discussing in the board tomorrow?"

"明天 board meeting 你要讨论的 bottleneck 是什么?"

"The bottleneck for our long-term future is how we identify the technical product engineers that will take the product to its next phase."

"长期来看,我们的 bottleneck 是——怎么识别那些能把产品推到下一阶段的"技术 + 产品"型工程师。"

"What is the hardest role to hire for?"

"最难招的岗位是什么?"

"Hiring engineering leaders is very difficult — it's hard to predict how their past performance will translate to our organization."

"招工程负责人非常难——很难预测他过去的 performance 在我们组织里能不能复现。"

"What did you do on hiring that you wish you hadn't?"

"在招人这事上,你希望没做的事是什么?"

"I wish I was in the details when hiring, not delegate too much."

"我希望招人的时候我更扎进细节——不要 delegate 太多。"

"I wish I was more proactive about: does this person want to reach the outcomes? Are they excited inherently?"

"我希望更主动地问:这个人想达到的 outcome 是什么?他本质上兴奋吗?"

"It struck me that the recent OpenAI release — respectfully, it was one of the first times I've seen your co-founder Fabian front and center, not you."

"最近 OpenAI 那次发布——说实话,那是我第一次看到你的 co-founder Fabian 在 C 位,而不是你。"

"How do you think about exposure between the two of you, given you are very much the face of Lovable?"

"你怎么想"你和他的曝光度"——你现在是 Lovable 的脸。"

"I'd love for Fabian to have more exposure, but I also want him to be focused on building the product."

"我希望 Fabian 多曝光,但我也想他专注做产品。"

"It's probably much easier for people to relate to Lovable if they see one person consistently."

"对外人来说,持续看到一个固定的人——更容易和 Lovable 建立连接。"

"What's the biggest secret to a successful co-founding pair scaling at the speed of Lovable?"

"在 Lovable 这种速度下扩张——一个成功 co-founder 二人组的最大秘诀是什么?"

"The most important thing is just the horsepower and adaptability of the founders."

"最重要的事就是——founder 本身的马力和适应力。"

"If those are maxed out, you must be able to work together — with sufficiently low ego, it's going to work."

"如果马力和适应力都拉满——你只要能合作——ego 低到一定程度——就能成。"

"You're married and very happily married. When you think about successful marriages, what makes the marriage so successful?"

"你结婚了——而且婚姻很幸福。你觉得成功的婚姻——最重要的是什么?"

"Me and Fabian — we can talk about anything. That's extremely powerful."

"我和 Fabian——我们什么都能聊。这点极其重要。"

"Humility. A lot of humility."

"还有 humility(谦逊)——非常多的谦逊。"

"I talk about my faults a lot — in my marriage, for example."

"我经常聊我的缺点——比如在婚姻里。"

"Does success make marriage harder or easier?"

"成功让婚姻更难还是更容易?"

"If you have zero hours to spend with your partner, it makes it more difficult."

"如果你能给伴侣的时间是 0,那肯定更难。"

"I haven't changed my lifestyle since Lovable was successful — maybe I think less about monetary decisions, but lifestyle is pretty much the same."

"Lovable 成功之后我没改变 lifestyle——也许我现在少想钱的决策,但 lifestyle 基本一样。"

"What does a Lovable product look like at the end of 2026?"

"2026 年底 Lovable 这个产品长什么样?"

"It's your perfect co-founder — that you go to with your idea from the idea stage, all the way up to growing your business."

"它是你的完美 co-founder——从 idea 阶段一路陪你到把生意做大。"

"You eat the whole stack — one opinionated way to do the entire product life cycle."

"我们吃下整个 stack——给你一套有观点的"整个产品生命周期"做法。"

"From email marketing to SMS marketing and everything in between."

"从邮件营销到短信营销,中间所有东西。"

"Dude, we're going to do a quick fire round."

"兄弟,我们做一轮快问快答。"

"I'm going to hit you with some incredibly unfair questions, and you can give me your thoughts."

"我会问一些非常不公平的问题——你给我你的想法。"

"What wildly held belief about AI do you think is just very wrong?"

"关于 AI 的哪个广为流传的看法——你觉得完全错?"

"I think AI is much better than humans — and most people don't agree."

"我觉得 AI 比人强多了——大多数人不同意。"

"The reason is — oftentimes it's very very stupid."

"原因是——AI 经常表现得非常蠢。"

"But if you give it all the context, or build a purposeful system around what it's stupid at — it's much better than humans."

"但只要你给它完整 context,或者针对它的"蠢点"造一个专门系统——它就比人强很多。"

"Plateau, or continuous exponential progression curve?"

"会平台期,还是继续指数曲线?"

"I think we'll see plateauing on the things we care about — like nuance and being good at all the different things."

"我觉得在我们关心的事情上——nuance、各方面都强——会出现平台期。"

"What we've seen so far is sigmoid curves across many different dimensions at the same time."

"目前为止我们看到的是——在很多维度上同时跑出 sigmoid 曲线。"

"You can invest in OpenAI at $380B, Anthropic at $180B, and Grok at $100B. Which one do you invest in and which do you short?"

"OpenAI 估值 $380B、Anthropic $180B、Grok $100B——投哪个、做空哪个?"

"I'd invest in Grok."

"投 Grok。"

"I would probably short Anthropic — no, I would short."

"我大概率做空 Anthropic——不,我就是会做空。"

"Why would you buy Grok and short OpenAI?"

"为什么投 Grok、做空 OpenAI?"

"It's more the slope on the Grok team."

"更多是 Grok 团队的 slope。"

"They're doing something which I respect a lot — hiring missionaries for the data curation part."

"他们做了一件我非常尊重的事——为 data curation 招 missionary。"

"They call it AI tutoring."

"他们叫这件事 AI tutoring。"

"The morale is much much better in that team."

"那个团队的士气好得多。"

"Do you think there will be a leading model that has not been created yet?"

"未来会不会出现一个还没诞生的领先模型?"

"Yes. From China."

"会。来自中国。"

"Do you worry about China?"

"你担心中国吗?"

"Chinese companies are not as good at really understanding your users — so not very worried."

"中国公司在"真正理解用户"上还差一些——所以我不太担心。"

"I do think there's like a 50/50 chance they will have the best model."

"但我真觉得有大概 50/50 的概率——中国会有最好的模型。"

"We'll be using a Chinese model at some point — that makes me a bit concerned."

"我们总有一天会接入中国模型——这件事让我有点担心。"

"I would have to look into the details — what's bad about that, do we give them data we don't want to give them?"

"我得深入看细节——这事有什么坏处?会不会给他们不该给的数据?"

"We just want to do what's best for our customers."

"我们就是想为客户做最好的选择。"

"You can have dinner with anyone, dead or alive. Who do you have dinner with, and what do you ask them?"

"任何人都能请——活的死的——你和谁吃饭?问什么?"

"I would have dinner with Newton, because he was religious and super smart."

"我会和牛顿吃饭——他是个信教又超级聪明的人。"

"I'd talk about how he was in his age, and why he's religious."

"我想聊他在那个时代是什么状态、为什么信教。"

"He invented so many different things — he's a role model."

"他发明了那么多东西——他是我的 role model。"

"What do you think happens to Perplexity?"

"你觉得 Perplexity 会怎样?"

"Would you invest in them at $18 billion?"

"$18B 估值你会投吗?"

"They want to create the phone, I think. That's a good bet."

"我觉得他们想做手机——这是个不错的赌注。"

"$18 billion — it depends on what options I have."

"$18B?——看我有什么其他 option。"

"What have you changed your mind on most?"

"你最大的认知反转是什么?"

"Bluntly, I thought you'd see the commoditization of model performance — value accrual would be very different."

"老实说——我以为模型性能会快速 commoditize——价值积累的方式会完全不同。"

"I worry about us humans globally not understanding what we want to achieve on this planet."

"我担心我们人类整体——还没搞清楚我们在这个星球上想达成什么。"

"If there's rapid change — white collar workers out of a job — humans get super worried, concerned, scared."

"如果剧烈变化发生——白领失业——人会非常担心、焦虑、害怕。"

"Eight out of the top 10 paying jobs today did not exist 15 years ago — we always overestimate job displacement with new technologies."

"今天最赚钱的 10 个工作里有 8 个 15 年前还不存在——我们总是高估新技术对就业的取代。"

"We're going to have a shift away from some very glamorous jobs — which people will get depressed by."

"会有些非常光鲜的工作消失——这件事会让一些人抑郁。"

"Similarly to how being an artist used to be so cool, but clearly you can't make any money as an artist."

"就像曾经"当艺术家"那么酷——但显然艺术家赚不到钱。"

"Which competitor do you most respect?"

"你最尊重哪个对手?"

"OpenAI is pretty good at building products."

"OpenAI 在做产品上挺强。"

"Other foundation model labs will do even better at building products — those are the ones we should think about for the future."

"还有些 foundation model lab 在做产品上会更强——这些才是未来要想的对手。"

"I respect Figma — they're good at listening to their users and building a good product."

"Figma 我很尊重——他们擅长听用户、做好产品。"

"If they can translate that to the full product life cycle — they're a very formidable competitor."

"如果他们能把这点延伸到整个产品生命周期——会是非常可怕的对手。"

"Everything goes to plan — where is Lovable in 5 years?"

"一切按计划——5 年后 Lovable 在哪?"

"We're the most-used interface for humans to AI — and that's a very huge market."

"我们是"人类通向 AI"用得最多的界面——这个市场非常大。"

"Dude, it's so much better doing it in person. I've so enjoyed this."

"兄弟,亲自录就是好得多。我太享受这一集了。"

"Thank you so much for agreeing to do it in person — I've loved it, man."

"非常感谢你愿意当面录——我超喜欢。"