"No, We're Starting Over"

cuz you're catching us 2 weeks after we really released Dia to this private beta.

因为你逮到我们的时间点,正好是 Dia 真正放出私测两周之后。

I don't think the first two weeks could have gone better.

头两周的情况,我想不出还能比这更好。

We feel so so proud.

我们真的特别自豪。

And so I think I felt an adrenaline release and I think it's safe to say last year sucked.

所以我感觉到一种肾上腺素释放出来了;而且我觉得可以坦白说,去年真的很糟。

Like it it really did.

真的,是真的糟。

If we were running a company with 70 people, millions of people using the product every month.

我们当时管着一家 70 人的公司,每个月有几百万人在用这个产品。

No, we're starting over.

结果是:不了,我们要从头再来。

Oh, cool.

哦,行啊。

What are we doing?

那我们要做什么?

We don't really know, but it'll be great.

我们也不太清楚,但肯定会很棒。

We have this realization that all of software needs to be rewritten for this new world because primary interfaces we have with computers are going to change.

我们意识到,所有软件都得为这个新世界重写一遍,因为我们跟计算机之间最主要的那些界面就要变了。

What feels like your computer in 5 or 10 years is actually going to be this layer that sits across all of your devices.

五年或十年后,你感觉是「你的电脑」的那个东西,其实会是一层横跨你所有设备的东西。

This is the internet computer, but you're not turning to it for the tabs.

这就是 internet computer(互联网计算机),但你去找它,不是为了标签页。

You're not even turning to it for the desktop part.

你甚至也不是为了桌面那部分才去找它。

What you're turning to it for is this personal intelligence layer that is a wild invention in humanity that's going to help you do all sorts of things and it's going to be miraculous.

你去找它,是为了这一层个人智能层——那是人类的一项狂野发明,它会帮你做各种各样的事,而且会像奇迹一样。

But don't forget the browser is just the enabling technology underneath.

但别忘了,底下那个浏览器只是使能技术而已。

[Music] Josh, Hursh, welcome to the show.

[Music] Josh、Hursh,欢迎上节目。

Good to be here.

很高兴能来。

Thanks for having us.

谢谢你请我们来。

Of course.

别客气。

So good to have you.

能请到你们真是太好了。

Uh so for people who don't know uh you are the co-founders of The Browser Company um you are the makers of Arc and now Dia.

先给还不了解的朋友说一句:你们两位是 The Browser Company 的联合创始人,做出了 Arc,现在又做了 Dia。

Mhm.

嗯。

Um and I'm psyched to talk to you about Dia.

我特别兴奋能跟你们聊 Dia。

Talk to you about the journey to get there.

聊聊你们一路走到这儿的过程。

Um as as you can see if you're watching the show uh me and her show are together.

如果你在看视频就能看到,我和 Hursh 是坐在一起的。

We're we're in upstate New York in a little in a little uh cabin.

我们在纽约州北部,在一个小木屋里。

We've been friends for a long time and and I think one thing that people should know coming into this is like we have been uh sort of like on parallel journeys together as you've started The Browser Company.

我们是很多年的朋友了,我觉得开场前大家该知道的一件事是:从你们创办 The Browser Company 那时候起,我们俩差不多是各自走着一段平行的路。

Um I started every around the same time as you guys started and um we've been close for a long time.

我创办 Every 跟你们起步差不多是同一时期,我们也一直走得很近。

So it's it's been really fun to um get to watch the journey uh from afar and yeah I'm just really excited to get to talk to you about it.

所以能在一旁看着这一路,真的挺过瘾的。今天能跟你们聊聊这件事,我也确实很期待。

So thanks for coming on.

所以,谢谢你们来。

Well, I'm just gonna say for the record, I'm not there because I didn't get the invite.

那我得先声明一下:我没在那儿,是因为我没收到邀请。

So, we're not that close, Dan.

所以,我们关系没那么近,Dan。

I will say I'm kidding.

我得补一句,我开玩笑的。

No, it's awesome to be here.

不,能来这儿太棒了。

I didn't organize this.

这不是我组织的。

You can You got to blame Paulina Hursh's wife.

你要怪就怪 Paulina,Hursh 的太太。

Yeah.

是啊。

Honored to be here.

很荣幸能来。

Excited to do this.

特别期待录这期。

We've listened to so many of your podcasts and obviously you have so much history.

我们听过你好多期播客,而且你显然有太多渊源在里头。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

So, um another a couple other disclaimers.

那,再补几条声明。

Um I'm a small investor in The Browser Company.

我是 The Browser Company 的小额投资人。

Um, so people should know that I also spoke at your wedding.

所以这一点大家该知道,另外我还在你的婚礼上致过辞。

Um, so we'll we'll put up a little picture of me speaking there.

所以我们会放一张我在婚礼上致辞的小照片。

Um, and another like really interesting little bit of history that uh that is fun for me to remember now is I actually like there was a point at which I was considering or you guys were considering me to be the CEO of The Browser Company.

还有一段小历史,现在回想起来挺好玩的:其实曾经有一阵子,我在考虑——或者说你们在考虑——让我来当 The Browser Company 的 CEO。

Uh, which is crazy to think about that now.

现在回头想想,这事还挺不可思议的。

Um because uh you know you had come up with the idea to to incubate at the time it was Superhuman for browsers was the pitch as I remember.

因为你当时想出了那个孵化的点子,我记得当时的说法是「浏览器版的 Superhuman」。

Um and I was working on Superorganizers which is a little newsletter which would become every um Oh did that turn into every?

而我那时在做 Superorganizers,一个小小的 newsletter,后来变成了 Every——哦,那后来变成 Every 了?

I didn't even realize that.

我都没意识到。

Wow.

哇。

Yeah.

是啊。

And so there was there was a moment in time where uh where we were we were discussing working together on on this.

所以有那么一阵子,我们在讨论要不要一起做这件事。

So, it's really fun to come full circle five and a half years later and be like, "Wow, I'm we're both we're all so much older.

所以 5 年半之后再绕回原点,真的挺有意思,那感觉就是:「哇,我们俩、我们所有人都老了这么多。

We have so much so many more wrinkles.

皱纹也多了这么多。

I have a I have a big beard.

我留了一把大胡子。

I think I was pretty clean shaven when when we were doing that." So, yeah, that was a crazy moment.

我记得我们当年谈那事的时候,我脸刮得挺干净。」总之,那真是个不可思议的时刻。

Wow.

哇。

So, Superorganizers is like your arc.

所以 Superorganizers 就相当于你的 Arc。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

嗯。

Well, I hope Dia goes as well as every I'm like fingers crossed like I'm into it.

我希望 Dia 能像 Every 一样顺,我真替你们祈祷,我是真喜欢它。

Yeah, thank you.

是啊,谢谢。

I think uh we all have a lot to learn from each other.

我觉得我们都有很多可以互相学习的地方。

Um so I think the the first thing I want to talk about is I watched this pivot from Arc to Dia.

所以我想先聊的第一件事是:我一路看着你们从 Arc 转向 Dia 的这次转型。

I think we were in Thailand together when we were first starting to get like really psyched about AI and I just watched Hursh's eyes just like he had this like spark.

我记得我们最早对 AI 真正兴奋起来的时候,正一起在泰国,我就看着 Hursh 的眼睛,他眼里有那种火花。

It was like a sparkle.

就像有一点亮光在闪。

It was like, "Oh my god, this is crazy." Uh, and I was like, "Yes." I was like the little devil on his shoulder being like, "Yes, you get it." Oh, it's your fault, Dan.

那感觉就是:「我的天,这太疯狂了。」我就说:「没错。」我就像他肩上那个小恶魔,一直在说:「对,你懂了。」——哦,原来是你的错啊,Dan。

I always wondered where that came from.

我一直还奇怪这是打哪儿来的。

Um, and and what's what's been really interesting to me to see is I' I've obviously been watching this journey from Arc to Dia and um watched the decision happen to be like, "Okay, we're not going to do Ark anymore." and then watched the public reaction which was so negative.

而让我觉得特别有意思的是,这趟从 Arc 到 Dia 的旅程我当然一直看在眼里,看着那个决定落下——「好,我们不做 Arc 了」——然后看到外界的反应,那么负面。

Um I think people just loved Ark so much and then watched you guys have to like bear that while you were building Dia and I just want to know like what was that like?

我觉得大家实在太爱 Arc 了;我就看着你们一边做 Dia,一边还得扛着这些,我特别想知道:那到底是什么感觉?

Um honestly it was a little unexpected.

老实说,是有点出乎意料。

Um I don't think we had predicted the reaction that we got when we announced that especially because we had been in this headsp space for quite a while.

宣布之后收到那样的反应,我们确实没预料到,尤其是我们自己在这个念头里已经待了相当久。

You know, we've been trying to all throughout 2023 or so trying to figure out how do we get from early adopters to the mass market with Arc.

整个 2023 年前后,我们一直在琢磨:怎么带着 Arc 从早期用户走进大众市场。

And Arc had this problem which we call the novelty tax where uh there's so much new stuff in it which really attracted early adopters but made a lot of the mass market uh sort of more hesitant to try Arc because it just took a lot to get to learn and use.

Arc 有个我们叫 novelty tax(新颖性税)的问题:里面新东西太多,这很吸引早期用户,但大众市场里很多人反而不太敢试 Arc,因为光是学会用就得花不少功夫。

And so I don't I mean Josh can probably say more.

所以……我是说,Josh 大概能讲得更多。

We tried so many things to figure out okay how do we make arc uh sort of approachable to the mass market.

我们试了非常多办法,想搞清楚怎么让 Arc 对大众市场更好上手。

Um and then simultaneously AI had been taking off and I think uh Josh has this video last year of uh act two we had this realization that actually browsers are going to change pretty dramatically and how we use computers are going to change pretty dramatically from a user computer interface point of view you know where we're going to talk to our computers they're going to do stuff because this new Play-Doh allows you to like speak in English and they can use tools and suddenly computers are something completely different and so uh we went through our own evolution over many months to be like how do we nudge Arc in that direction and for a We called it Arc 2.0.

同时 AI 也起飞了,Josh 去年有个视频讲的就是 act two(第二幕):我们意识到浏览器会发生相当剧烈的变化,而从人机界面的角度看,我们使用计算机的方式也会剧烈变化——我们会跟计算机说话,它们会去做事,因为这种新的 Play-Doh(像橡皮泥一样的新材料)让你能直接用英语说话,它们还能使用工具,计算机突然就变成了完全不同的东西;所以我们自己也花了好几个月慢慢演变,想的是怎么把 Arc 往那个方向推一推,有一阵子我们管它叫 Arc 2.0。

Um, and we were like, okay, how do we evolve it?

我们想的是,好,那怎么让它演进?

Uh, and we just ran into a lot of problems internally too where we loved Arc so much that we were hesitant to change it, you know, like the the internal discussions about like, oh, what do we do with the sidebar was like at the wrong level, you know, when we have this new Play-Doh, we have we really had to start from from scratch.

而内部我们也撞上一堆问题:我们太爱 Arc 了,反而不敢动它,比如内部那些讨论——「哦,侧边栏怎么办」——层次根本就不对;手里有了这种新的 Play-Doh,我们其实必须从零开始。

And so maybe I, you know, I I'd be curious for your take, Josh, actually, on like how do you feel about the external messaging?

所以也许……Josh,我其实挺想听听你的看法:你怎么看对外传达这件事?

Because for us it was over such a long period of time and so obvious you know that we had to okay we have to start from scratch if we're going to build this thing from the ground up to use AI and to be accessible to the mass market.

因为在我们这边,这件事是在很长一段时间里慢慢发生的,而且非常明显——好,要从头造一个用上 AI、又能让大众市场用得起来的东西,我们就必须从零开始。

But I think it was probably a shock to the external uh folks that oh my god we're building a whole new browser.

但对外面的人来说,「天啊,他们要做一个全新的浏览器」,这大概是个冲击。

Yeah.

是啊。

I mean I think I think I the thing I would say is you're catching us 2 weeks after we beta.

我想说的是,你这次逮着我们,是在我们发 beta 之后 2 周。

And I'd say in terms of Hursh and my hopes and expectations, I don't think the first two weeks could have gone better.

就 Hursh 和我原本的希望和预期来说,头两周不可能更好了。

We feel so so proud.

我们非常非常自豪。

And so I think I felt an adrenaline release.

所以我感觉像是肾上腺素一下子释放出来了。

And I think it's safe to say last year sucked.

而且可以说,去年真的很烂。

Like it it really did.

真的,烂透了。

And I think it's one of those things like many things that I I think are most fulfilling and rewarding in life that if you knew what you knew now, would you have done it?

我觉得这属于那种事——人生里很多最有成就感、最有回报的事都这样——要是当初就知道你现在知道的这些,你还会去做吗?

And yet at the same time in retrospect it so obviously was the right call.

可同时,回头看,这决定又明显对得不能再对。

But I think a thing for especially listeners to know and you alluded to this.

但有件事我特别想让听众知道,你刚才也点到了。

Hursh and I I've never made software really without Hir.

Hursh 和我——我做软件基本上从来没离开过 Hursh。

I met Hursh when I was 20 years old.

我 20 岁那年认识 Hursh。

We both left university barely knowing each other to start a company together.

我们俩几乎还不怎么熟,就一起从大学退学、开了家公司。

I think flash forward over a decade now.

快进到现在,十多年过去了。

If I'm being really honest, I think it felt so obvious to me and Hursh intellectually, emotionally, the thing I think we both underappreciated was it's not just me and him anymore, right?

真要老实说,这件事对我和 Hursh 来说,理性上、情感上都太明显了;我觉得我们俩都低估的一点是:现在已经不只是我和他两个人了,对吧?

I mean I mean we knew that, but at every moment that Hursh and I looked across a proverbial table and said, "Hey, should we should we do this?

我是说,我们当然知道这点,但过去每一次 Hursh 和我隔着那张所谓的桌子对望、说「嘿,我们该干这个吗?

Should we make this thing?" It was me and him, right?

我们该做这个东西吗?」——都只有我和他两个人,对吧?

And we we we share value like we it's just a different relationship.

而且我们价值观是共通的,这就是一种不一样的关系。

We were running a company with 70 people, you know, millions of people using the product every month and we definitely I think underappreciated the public reaction.

我们那时在管一家 70 人的公司,每个月有几百万人在用这个产品,而我觉得我们确实低估了公众的反应。

I mean, when we started this company, Dan, I you know, when we when we were trying to recruit you to be the CEO, one of the questions like, how do you get anyone to care about their desktop web browser?

我是说,我们刚创立这家公司的时候,Dan,当时我们想拉你来当 CEO,那会儿的问题之一是:你怎么让人去在意自己的桌面网页浏览器?

In fact, I've never even thought about my desktop web browser before, let alone have an opinion on it, was the the what we saw the most. So I think we were very surprised by the reaction for sure and wanted to do some things differently.

「说真的,我以前压根没想过我的桌面网页浏览器,更别说对它有什么看法了」——这是我们看到最多的回答。所以我们确实被这次的反应惊到了,也希望有些事能做得不一样。

But then maybe more importantly, definitely more importantly is our team showing up to a company where at that point in the company's evolution, people came cuz they loved Arc themselves.

但也许更重要的、肯定更重要的,是我们团队:在公司当时那个阶段,大家进来是因为他们自己就爱 Arc。

They joined for Arc more than The Browser Company.

他们加入是为了 Arc,而不是为了 The Browser Company。

Be like, "Hey, that thing we poured our hearts into for years.

现在等于跟他们说:「嘿,那个我们倾注了好几年心血的东西——

No, we're starting over." Oh, cool.

不做了,我们从头开始。」「哦,行吧。

What are we doing?

那我们做什么?

We don't really know, but it'll be great.

我们也不太清楚,但肯定会很棒。

We're just going to go that way, right?

我们就朝那个方向走,对吧?

Sounds like a great plan, right?

听起来真是个好计划,对吧?

you know like so it was a it was a winding journey but very proud at this point that's yeah okay this is there's a lot here I really want to go into tell me about the initial moment where you guys were coming to the decision of like oh wow there's something totally new here and not only is ark maybe not working in the way that we want it to but like there's something new that we need to go play with that we can't even really describe what it is like what What was that like?

所以这是一段曲折的路,但走到今天非常自豪——是的。好,这里面有太多我想深入聊的:跟我讲讲最开始那个时刻,你们那会儿正走向那个判断:「哇,这里有某种全新的东西」,而且不只是 Arc 也许没按我们想要的方式跑起来,而是有某种新东西我们必须去玩玩,可我们甚至说不清它到底是什么——那是什么感觉?

Like h how did that whole thing come together?

那整件事到底是怎么凑成的?

Yeah.

对。

And and one of the things I think I want to be more forthright about here, I don't think we've really said publicly before is I almost think blaming art is a scapegoat, right?

还有一件事我想在这儿说得更坦白些,这话我们以前应该没真正公开讲过——我几乎觉得,把锅推给 Arc 是在找替罪羊,对吧?

If if if really Hursh originally and then myself didn't get so inspired by this new material that are LLMs, I we would not have pivoted Arc to something else.

如果——如果最早是 Hursh、后来是我自己,没有被 LLM 这种新材料激发到那个程度,我们是不会把 Arc 转去做别的东西的。

you know, it wasn't it's it's easy in retrospect, oh, it's growing literally the novelty tax.

事后回头看很容易说:哦,是增长不行了,就是字面意义上的 novelty tax(新颖性税)。

And I 100% agree with her that that is true, but our first instinct was actually just to make art better.

我 100% 同意 Hursh 说的,那确实是真的,但我们最初的本能其实只是想把 Arc 做得更好。

So, I I really think the origin story here was that like you can't stop thinking about it.

所以我真觉得,这件事的起源就是:你脑子里根本停不下来。

You're staying up till 3:00 a.m. Every bone in your body is just like this is why we got into software.

你熬到 3:00 a.m.,浑身每一根骨头都在喊:这就是我们当初做软件的原因。

But I I really got to credit Hursh.

但功劳我真得记给 Hursh。

I think I have this part of me that is very anti Silicon Valley hype, which honestly for people that follow me on Twitter or something, they're probably like, I think of you as like a hypy dude.

我身上有一部分极其反硅谷炒作——说实话,那些在 Twitter 上关注我的人大概会想:我一直觉得你就是个特爱吹的人啊。

And and yeah, let's have a therapy session later about that.

对,这事儿咱们改天再开一场心理治疗专场聊。

Um, but for me, I just the crypto wave uh was the one that came before and just for me, it just it felt icky to me even though I agreed with idealism.

但对我来说,上一波是加密货币,虽然我认同它那套理想主义,它还是让我觉得膈应。

So here comes around AI and my knee-jerk reaction is like this is a bunch of hot air but really like when I think about I didn't not thinking about this interview before we came in you know when you just said that with the origin story I think of a conversation I had with Hursh in San Francisco that to me was a like oh we got to do this thing so I mean Hursh when you you really were first to see this world that was coming and and feel it in your bones like do you remember even for you where it came from and when he's giving me a lot of credit I think it probably I came at it from my own perspective.

于是 AI 这一波来了,我条件反射般的第一反应是:这全是一堆空话;但当我认真去想——我们进来之前我根本没在想这个访谈——你刚提到起源故事,我脑子里冒出来的是我和 Hursh 在 San Francisco 的一次对话,那次对我来说就是「哦,这事我们必须做」;所以 Hursh,你才是最先看见那个正在到来的世界、并且在骨子里感觉到它的人,你还记得对你来说它是从哪儿来的吗?——他把很多功劳记在我头上,我觉得大概是我从我自己的角度切进去的。

I think realizing part of it was excitement about the Play-Doh but part of it also was the realization that like if if we don't go this route I think you know we're going to get obviated you know all of software needs to be rewritten for this new world because again the the primary interfaces we have with computers are going to change uh but I think a lot of it also came from your experimentation with Arc Search right and like actually playing with LLMs and realizing oh we can build something cool here this is Play-Doh we're really good at using arc was extremely popular amongst the kind of uh limited corner of the world that knew about it.

我想我当时意识到的,一部分是对 Play-Doh(像橡皮泥一样的新材料)的兴奋,另一部分是意识到:如果我们不走这条路,我们就会被淘汰;所有软件都得为这个新世界重写一遍,因为说到底,我们跟计算机打交道的主要界面要变了;但我觉得很大一部分也来自你拿 Arc Search 做的那些实验,对吧,来自真的去玩 LLM,然后意识到,哦,我们能在这儿做出很酷的东西,这就是我们最擅长用的 Play-Doh——Arc 在知道它的那一小圈人里极其受欢迎。

And the number one request for Arc was I need a mobile app.

而对 Arc 呼声最高的需求是:我需要一个手机 App。

But the browser is very different on mobile than it is on desktop.

但浏览器在手机上和在桌面上非常不一样。

So we said, okay, let's just build a companion app.

所以我们说,好,那就做一个配套 App。

You can have your spaces and your tabs on your phone.

你的 spaces 和标签页,在手机上也能用。

And you know, in the backdrop of launching this kind of Arc mobile app is when all these kind of AI tools started popping up.

而推出这个 Arc 手机 App 的背景,正是各种 AI 工具开始一个个冒出来的时候。

And there, as much as we wanted or I wanted to resist the hype, I'm an intellectually curious guy that loves new technology.

而在那件事上,尽管我们、或者说我,很想抵抗这波炒作,可我本来就是个求知欲旺盛、热爱新技术的人。

And so there was some part of me, especially driven by Hursh, that was like, okay, but if you really just tried to make the best kind of AI browser experience you could, what would it look like?

所以我心里有一部分——尤其是被 Hursh 推着——就在想:好吧,可要是你真去做一个你能做出来的最好的 AI 浏览器体验,它会长什么样?

But it would have been a huge distraction for the team to do that on desktop.

但在桌面端做这件事,对团队会是个巨大的干扰。

So I we actually hired a contractor externally.

所以我们其实是从外面找了个外包。

I was living in Paris at the time.

我当时住在 Paris。

Uh, and kind of hired him to do this skunk works project.

就雇他来做这个秘密小项目(skunk works)。

Was like, "Hey, just for funsies, it's not going to be a big deal.

我跟他说:「嘿,纯粹玩玩,不会是什么大事。

What if we build a mobile browser that only does one thing?" Again, we had a little bit of the like PTSD from Arc already.

要是我们做一个只做一件事的手机浏览器会怎样?」毕竟我们已经从 Arc 那儿落下一点 PTSD 了。

What it only does one thing really well and it has something to do with AI at its core just to prototype and learn.

它只把一件事做到极好,而这件事的内核跟 AI 有关——只是为了做原型、为了学点东西。

And so the idea was what if in this mobile browser instead of pulling back links we made you the perfect web page.

所以当时的想法是:在这个手机浏览器里,如果我们不给你返回一堆链接,而是直接给你做出那个完美的网页,会怎样?

So instead of typing in a query and trying to find the right link from the worldwide web that is the closest approximation to what you're asking for but not exactly what you're asking for.

也就是说,不再是你敲进一个查询,然后去万维网上找那个最接近你所问、但又不完全是你所问的链接。

Let's understand the intent of your query and just make a web page on the fly for that thing.

而是我们去理解你这个查询的意图,直接为它现场做出一个网页。

just very simple idea and it was so not a big deal or meant to be a big deal.

就这么一个很简单的想法,当时它真的不是、也没打算成为什么大事。

I tweeted it on a Sunday before boarding a flight which for our company is not how you launch new products and it just exploded more than anything we've made so far.

我在一个周日登机前发了条推——在我们公司,这根本不是发布新产品的方式——结果它爆了,比我们此前做的任何东西都爆。

And so you know we had a number of takeaways from from that but one of them that really influenced Dia was what Hursh is referencing as the novelty budget.

所以我们从那件事里拿到了好几条收获,其中真正影响 Dia 的一条,就是 Hursh 说的那个 novelty budget。

keep it extremely simple, extremely focused, change one thing and have that one thing be the thing you talk about which I realize in retrospect is like yeah duh welcome to like making consumer products for real human beings but is the antithesis of arc as you know in terms of the product philos philosophy I think Arc Search also gave us sort of a strategic realization which is if you think about what a browser is it has sort of a desktop browser especially it has two components one is it's sort of a a funnel for intent you know the the omni box is where you type in all your search queries and if you have a certain intent uh it goes to search and then you can go find that thing uh and uh and then secondly it's an application platform uh and so you run all your web apps and it's sort of the web 1.0 and 2.0 sort of uh portions of what a browser does and both I think Arc Search made us realize that the intent portion is going to be drastically changed by AI because a lot of our intent is going to go to these models that get a bunch of data and then you know spit out the actual answer.

保持极其简单、极其聚焦,只改一件事,并且让这一件事就是你对外讲的那件事——事后回头看我才意识到,这不就是「对,废话,欢迎来到真给活人做消费级产品的世界」;但从产品哲学上说,这跟 Arc 恰恰相反,你也知道。我觉得 Arc Search 还给了我们一层战略上的认识:你想想浏览器到底是什么,尤其是桌面浏览器,它有两块——一块是意图的漏斗,地址栏(omnibox)就是你敲进所有搜索查询的地方,你带着某个意图,它就把你转到搜索,然后你去找到那个东西;另一块是应用平台,你所有的 web app 都跑在上面,这算是浏览器承担的 web 1.0 和 2.0 那两半;而 Arc Search 让我们意识到,意图这一块会被 AI 剧烈改变,因为我们很多意图都会流向这些模型,它们抓一堆数据,然后直接吐出真正的答案。

Um and because uh AI can use tools and uh the browser has access to all your apps, it can also really support the application uh component.

而且因为 AI 会用工具,而浏览器能访问你所有的 App,它也能真正撑起应用这一块。

And so I think Arc Search was our first foray into realizing browsers are going to change you know and so we need to rethink what our strategy is because the entire ecosystem has changed uh and uh the browser's place in that ecosystem is going to change drastically and so that was sort of our first moment of like oh we got to rethink you know what product is and I think the bit about search is really key here that came to influence Dia's you know keep in mind our kind of approach to building arc was really as much about, you know, urban planning and interior design as software and that our our recognition was you spend hours a day in this rectangle in the space and people don't have any feelings about it.

所以我觉得 Arc Search 是我们第一次摸到这个认识:浏览器要变了,我们得重新想我们的战略是什么,因为整个生态都变了,而浏览器在这个生态里的位置也会剧烈改变;那就是我们第一次冒出「哦,我们得重新想产品是什么」的时刻。我觉得搜索这一点在这里真的很关键,它后来一路影响了 Dia——要知道,我们做 Arc 的路子,与其说是在做软件,不如说更像城市规划和室内设计;我们的认识是:你每天有好几个小时都待在这个矩形里、这个空间里,可人们对它没有任何感情。

Could we change that?

我们能不能改变这一点?

And so the sort of conversations we had is like okay, can we enumerate where those minutes and and hours are spent?

所以我们当时的对话是:好,我们能不能一条条列出这些分钟、这些小时到底花在哪儿了?

And arguably the core action in a browser is and was search.

而可以说,浏览器里的核心动作,现在是、过去也一直是搜索。

But up until Arc Search, we sort of said you can't touch that.

但在 Arc Search 之前,我们基本上是说:那块你不能碰。

You know, we're not Google.

我们又不是 Google。

there even though search opening a new I mean the command t text box is the most popular text box on your desktop computer according to Apple and I'm sure Microsoft as well but we kind of said no we're we're not a search company we couldn't possibly do anything with that you know that's Google's domain look even Microsoft threw tens of billions over many years and Bing sucks so what are we going to do so I think it also opened Pandora's box of saying oh wait as Hursh said this is this is the choke point for the internet.

尽管搜索——我是说,command T 打开新标签页时那个文本框,按 Apple 的说法是你桌面电脑上最常用的文本框,我相信 Microsoft 那边也一样——但我们当时还是说了不:我们不是一家搜索公司,我们不可能在那上面做出什么,那是 Google 的地盘;你看,连 Microsoft 砸了几百亿、砸了这么多年,Bing 还是很烂,那我们能干什么呢;所以我觉得它也打开了潘多拉魔盒,让我们开始想:哦等等,像 Hursh 说的,这才是互联网的咽喉要道。

This little box routes you to places and does that mean we can now route you to new places and new things.

这个小框把你路由到各个地方,那是不是意味着我们现在可以把你路由到新的地方、新的东西上去?

So that was also the big like eye opening moment from Arc Search which was not the intention at all at the time we started the project.

所以那也是 Arc Search 带来的那个让人大开眼界的时刻,而我们启动那个项目时完全没这个打算。

So So take me from that moment from like okay you make some realizations from around Arc Search to um probably okay we're going to do AR 2.0 but actually maybe this is a totally new product.

那你带我走一遍那之后的过程——好,你们从 Arc Search 那儿得出了一些认识,再到大概是「好,我们要做 Arc 2.0」,但其实也许这该是一个全新的产品。

like what happened in between there?

那这中间发生了什么?

I' I've never said this before.

这话我以前从来没说过。

I think indecision and a lack of, you know, excellent leadership on at least I'll say my part in that I think Hursh and I knew deep down in that moment what we had to do whether it was from the Ark perspective of like Arc Search feels so simple and clean and resonant with people.

我觉得是犹豫不决,还有领导力不够好——至少我这部分是这样。说不够好,是因为那个时刻 Hursh 和我心底里其实知道该做什么,不管是从 Arc 这边看——Arc Search 就是那么简单、那么干净,那么能打动人。

I mean that was the first time we had people telling us that like hey I I really don't like Arc on desktop.

那是第一次有人跟我们说,嘿,我真的不喜欢桌面端的 Arc。

Sorry I just like too much.

抱歉,我就是觉得东西太多了。

don't get it, but I love Arc Search.

我搞不懂它,但我很喜欢 Arc Search。

So, I think the combination of Hursh and then my kind of increasing conviction that this was going to change all of software, as bombastic as that sounded, combined with the bottoms up resonance and simplicity and focus of Arc Search, Hursh and I, I think in our heart of hearts, knew what we had to do.

所以我觉得,Hursh 这一边,加上我自己越来越强的信念——这件事会改变整个软件,尽管这话听着很夸张——再加上 Arc Search 那种自下而上的共鸣、简单和专注,Hursh 和我在心底最深处是知道该做什么的。

But what happened next was that was in probably February of last year and it was in June at a companywide offsite that we said we're going to build something new.

但接下来的事情是,那大概是去年 2 月,而直到 6 月一次全公司 offsite(外出集体会议)上,我们才说要做一个新东西。

But then even then it was like it's gonna be Arc 2.0 like we don't even know like TBD.

但即便到那时,说法还是它会是 Arc 2.0,连我们自己都不知道,先待定。

So I think it probably wasn't until Septemberish of last year that we made the call to say it is a completely new product called something completely different with no connectivity to Arc.

所以我觉得,大概要到去年 9 月左右,我们才拍下这个决定:它是一个全新的产品,名字也完全不同,跟 Arc 没有任何关联。

And you know I I am so proud of actually a lot of what Hursh and I have done over the past year or two as leaders especially in this moment.

而且说实话,过去一两年里 Hursh 和我作为领导者做的很多事,我真的很骄傲,尤其是在这个时刻。

But I'd say that period is the one that I regret the most in terms of just like not calling a spade a spade and just like ripping the cord, you know, and to our point earlier, especially with a team that large and a team that joined postp product market fit, you know, like getting the teams buy in and get aligning with everybody and figuring out what are we doing and it took a little while.

但我得说,那段时期是我最后悔的——就是没有有话直说,没有一把把线撕掉;而且回到前面那点,尤其是面对那么大的一个团队,一个在 product market fit 之后才加入的团队,你要让团队认同,要跟每个人对齐,要搞清楚我们到底在做什么,这就得花上一段时间。

Dan, one thing I'll add too is like, you know, I I love every one of my favorite publications.

Dan,我还想补充一点,我很喜欢 Every,是我最喜欢的刊物之一。

Not an investor.

我不是投资人。

which is wish I was an investor but it's it's fantastic and one of the things that is remarkable actually even reading your coverage is keep in mind where AI was 14 months ago you know it was you know ChatGPT was you know long in the market and and and I think for most people paying attention you could kind of pull the curve forward but there was also a lot of technology macro risk at the time as well which is like are the scaling laws really going to continue like are we going to figure out hallucinations?

真希望我是投资人,但它确实很棒;而且有一点很值得琢磨,读你们的报道就能看出来——记住 14 个月前 AI 是什么状态,ChatGPT 已经在市场上很久了,我觉得对大多数认真在关注的人,你是能把曲线往前推演的,但当时技术上的宏观风险也很多,比如 scaling laws 真的会继续吗?幻觉问题我们真能搞定吗?

You know, even this concept of memory, which is core to what we're doing, I I mean I I can't remember the time stamps, but I don't think was part of the conversation and now is like arguably the most central idea behind Dia.

就连记忆这个概念,如今是我们做的事的核心,我记不清具体时间点了,但当时它根本不在讨论里,现在却几乎可以说是 Dia 背后最核心的想法。

And so, yeah, it's easy in retrospect, I think, to be a little like, you know, self-deprecating and it was not obvious to everybody or anyone.

所以是啊,事后回看,很容易有点自责,但这件事当时对所有人、对任何人都不是显而易见的。

And I do remember we put out a video that was like we think AI browsers are the future and everyone's like what are you talking about?

我确实记得,我们发过一个视频,说我们认为 AI 浏览器是未来,然后所有人都说:你在说什么啊?

Like like you're being a hype boy.

就好像说,你就是个炒作小子。

What are you talking about?

你在说什么啊?

And you know literally today there was a you know M.G. Siegler last night wrote this whole article that's like yeah AI browsers are definitely going to be a thing and everyone's definitely going to build them.

而就在今天,M.G. Siegler 昨晚写了一整篇文章,大意是:对,AI 浏览器肯定会成为一件大事,所有人肯定都会去做。

Like Apple's going to make one.

比如 Apple 会做一个。

Open AI is going to make one.

OpenAI 会做一个。

And so I don't say that to gloat.

我说这个不是为了炫耀。

It's actually you know competition that we have to wrestle with.

这其实是我们不得不去应对的竞争。

But in the moment in which I'm like, "Oh, the indecision, there were so many reasons why you would not do what we did." So, it was not that clear.

但回到当时那个时刻,我心里想的是:唉,那份犹豫不决——当时有太多理由让你不去做我们做的那件事。所以它真的没那么清晰。

I totally I totally remember all all of those things.

那些事我全都记得。

Like, how uh if you're really using those tools every day, you were like, "Wow, there's something here." But if if you weren't, you were like, "This stuff is like not good.

如果你真的每天在用那些工具,你会觉得:哇,这里面有东西。但如果你没在用,你会觉得:这东西根本不行。

No serious person could ever use this for their work." Um, and that has completely shifted at least for for a lot of people over the last like 18 months.

「没有哪个正经人会拿这个来做自己的工作。」而这一点在过去大约 18 个月里已经彻底变了,至少对很多人是这样。

And um, I would even say six months, Dan.

我甚至会说是 6 个月,Dan。

Like I one of the things that I remember in the moment was again, it's almost like it sounds like a love story or a relationship like me and Hursh and quiet moments together and the conversations we would have about this candle, you know.

当时我记得的一件事是——这说起来几乎像个爱情故事,或者像一段感情:我和 Hursh 单独待着的那些安静时刻,还有我们关于这根蜡烛的那些对话。

Yeah.

对。

Like uh, look each other's eyes glistening about our our future intelligence or whatever.

就是俩人对视,眼里泛着光,聊我们未来的智能之类的。

Uh um but keep in mind like I Hursh and I are are both people that um you know really care about the people in our lives outside of work and put a lot of effort into those relationships.

但要记住,Hursh 和我都很在意工作之外身边的那些人,也愿意在这些关系上花心力。

I'm really close with my family and um the people in my life in that moment were not into the idea of AI.

我和家人非常亲近,而在那个时刻,我生活里的这些人并不待见 AI 这回事。

You know, keep in mind the discourse that was that was peak.

要记住,当时那种舆论正闹到顶点。

This thing's going to ruin humanity and it's stealing artistic works and all that stuff, which I'm not saying doesn't have merit, but you go to the dinner table, you know, with my family showing a demo of this ChatGPT thing that I'm staying up till 3:00 a.m. and just finding deep inspiration in and they're like, "What are you talking about?" And so that's just like another moment where you're like, "Okay, the story of Arc at that point was great.

这东西会毁掉人类,它在偷艺术作品,诸如此类——我不是说这些话没道理,但你坐到饭桌上,给我的家人演示这个让我熬到 3:00 a.m.、从里面找到深刻灵感的 ChatGPT,他们的反应是:你在说什么啊?所以那又是这样的一个时刻,你会想:好吧,Arc 到那时候的故事确实很精彩。

You made a great product for tech people.

你给技术人群做了一个很棒的产品。

Anyone that's in the software industry loves what you did or at least respects it.

软件行业里的任何人都喜欢你做的东西,至少也尊重它。

But your problem is you didn't build something fundamentally mass market and essential for everyone that uses their laptop.

但你的问题是,你没做出一个从根本上面向大众市场、对每个用笔记本电脑的人都不可或缺的东西。

And so to the extent we were going to build a new product, it was only if we thought we could achieve our original mission of changing the way the average laptop person uses the internet in a moment where the dinner table conversations with the people we deeply love and care about were often saying, "You are too in the tech world, man.

所以要说我们会去做一个新产品,前提只有一个:我们真觉得能实现最初的使命——改变普通笔记本用户上网的方式。而就在那时候,饭桌上那些我们深爱、深深在意的人常常说:老兄,你太扎在科技圈里了。

You're telling me that like the thing that comes after arc is this like AI nonsense that's spitting out gibberish.

你是在跟我说,Arc 之后的那个东西,就是这个吐一堆胡言乱语的 AI 玩意儿?

So, it's a real act of like introspection to say, am I have I lost it?

所以这真的需要一次自省:我是不是已经疯了?

Have I become disconnected or are we do we just see what other people don't see because of what we're doing?

我是不是已经脱节了,还是说因为我们在做这件事,我们只是看到了别人看不到的东西?

And at least for me was this constant back and forth in my own head and with Hursh of like what is reality?

至少我自己是这样,这件事在我脑子里、在我和 Hursh 之间不断来回拉扯:现实究竟是什么?

I don't know.

我不知道。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

I mean, not only for my friends but also employees, you know.

而且不只是朋友这边,员工也一样。

Uh so that was that was tough.

所以那段真的很难。

Yeah.

嗯。

But what was that like um when you had that company meeting and you were like, "Hey, this is a new product." Do you remember Josh?

但当你们开那次全公司会议、你说「嘿,这是个新产品」的时候,那是什么感觉?你还记得吗,Josh?

Was that at the offsite?

那是在 offsite 上吗?

Yeah, I will say since narratives get kind of added in retrospect, it really was more of a gradual evolution.

嗯,我得说一句,叙事往往是事后才被加上去的,它其实更像一个渐进的演变。

So, there were some key moments.

确实有几个关键时刻。

There was this offsite in Montreal where we definitively said we're at least going to try to build a second product whether or not it's Arc 2.0 you know or not.

在蒙特利尔的那次 offsite 上,我们明确说了至少要试着做出第二个产品,不管它是不是 Arc 2.0。

There was a moment when we said it is going to be a second thing but it was obviously more gradual.

有那么一个时刻,我们说了它会是第二个东西,但整个过程显然更渐进。

I think one of the saving graces and I do not think we could have done this with a different company in a different moment was that you know really to Hursh's credit we founded this company with some core values that we really live by and one of them is assume you don't know.

我觉得有几件事救了我们——而且我真不觉得换一家公司、换一个时间点还能做成这件事——其中一件是,这真得记 Hursh 一功:我们创办这家公司的时候就立下了几条核心价值观,而且是真照着做,其中一条是「假设你并不知道」。

So we have this culture of no one has any idea what they're talking about and we'll have no idea until we try it, right?

所以我们养成了这么一种文化:谁都不真知道自己在讲什么,不试一把就永远不会知道,对吧?

And so that's why we have such a prototype driven culture, experimental culture for better for good and bad reasons.

所以我们才会有这么强的原型驱动的文化、实验文化——有出于好的原因,也有出于不好的原因。

And so I think in general at The Browser Company, if anyone says, I got this wacky idea and I'm really excited about it, I'm not, you know, let's try it.

所以我觉得在 The Browser Company 大体上是这样:要是有人说「我有个异想天开的念头,我自己特别来劲」,那就——试试看。

The people's first reaction is like, cool, prototype it and let's talk about it after that.

大家的第一反应是:行啊,先做个原型出来,做完再聊。

And so I think that was one of our saving graces is that we could just sort of frame it as what it was at the time, an inclination, a hunch.

所以我觉得这也是救了我们的一件事:我们可以就照它当时的本来面目去讲——一种倾向,一个直觉。

And again, I think as you built more and more things, I think became clear to more and more people over time.

而且我还是觉得,随着东西做得越来越多,时间一长,越来越多的人也就看明白了。

And I also think we just built up a lot of trust. Right at that point, we'd been building Arc for a number of years.

我也觉得我们就是攒下了很多信任。到那个时候,Arc 我们已经做了好几年。

People loved it.

大家很爱它。

People joined the company because they loved it.

有些人就是因为爱它才加入公司的。

And I think, you know, we had uh added some trust points to our bank account.

我觉得,我们在信任账户里存进了一些分。

and Hursh and I drew them down to maybe a negative balance, you know, up until Dia got further along.

然后 Hursh 和我把它透支了,可能都成了负数,一直到 Dia 往前走得远一点为止。

But, you know, credit to the team, you know, it's not like there was an organ rejection.

但这得记团队一功,并不是说出现了器官排异。

There were people that had their own concerns um and anxieties as as normal.

确实有人有自己的顾虑和不安,这很正常。

It was a a big call that was existential for the company, but in general, we had this culture of like, all right, let's see, you know.

这个决断关乎公司生死,分量很重,但整体上我们的文化就是:好吧,那就看看呗。

Yeah.

对。

And I one thing I'll add is we also built the capabilities over time.

我再补充一点:我们的能力也是一点点攒起来的。

So as we were prototyping we were getting a better sense of like both where the value is here but also like what are the things we need to get better at like evals, fine-tuning, you know from a technical perspective from a design perspective how how like how do chat interfaces work are chat interfaces the right mechanism LLMs all of that and so again as we gradually built that capability our our confidence grew what do you say to people because I think this is probably on someone's mind if they're listening to this um and it certainly was like it was a I was thinking which is okay I totally understand that maybe it's not going to be like this gigant is just not going to be this gigantic mass market consumer product or whatever but like it had millions of users um that's pretty good um and is isn't like VC distorting your um like what you count as good and aren't you kind of like killing something that so many people love um just because you it's not like billions of users and like talk to me about that cuz yeah I want to understand how you think about it.

所以在做原型的过程里,我们一边越来越清楚价值到底在哪儿,一边也越来越清楚自己得在哪些地方练本事——比如 evals、fine-tuning,技术上是这样,设计上也一样:聊天界面到底怎么运作、聊天界面是不是对的机制、LLM,全都在里面;所以还是那句话,能力一点点建起来,信心也就跟着长起来了。那你们会怎么回应这样的人呢?因为我觉得,听这期节目的人心里大概会冒出这个问题,我自己当时也肯定在想:好,我完全理解,它也许成不了那种巨大的、面向大众市场的消费级产品什么的,可它有数百万用户啊,这已经相当不错了;VC 是不是把你们眼里的「好」给扭曲了?你们是不是把这么多人喜欢的东西给杀掉了,就因为它没有几十亿用户?这个你跟我讲讲,因为我真想搞明白你们是怎么想的。

Well Dan actually it relates the origin story when we asked you to be the CEO.

Dan,其实这跟当初我们请你来当 CEO 的那段起源故事有关。

So the origin of The Browser Company was I was working at a venture capital firm and I was just shocked that all of the coolest fastest growing Silicon Valley companies that were coming across our desk were all of a sudden desktop web apps and they're desktop web apps for work.

The Browser Company 的起源是这样:我当时在一家风投机构工作,让我特别震惊的一点是,摆到我们桌上的那些最酷、增长最快的硅谷公司,突然全都变成了桌面端 web app——而且是给工作用的桌面端 web app。

I mean you started a newsletter called Superorganizers.

你那会儿办了个叫 Superorganizers 的 newsletter。

This was the moment of productivity software, right?

那正是生产力软件的当红时刻,对吧?

And so the idea was like, let's make a enterprise browser for work and as you said, take the Superhuman, the notion, the Figma playbook and and run it.

所以当时的想法就是:做一个面向工作的企业浏览器,像你说的,把 Superhuman、Notion、Figma 那套 playbook 拿过来照着跑一遍。

And so, uh, Hursh was going to be the founder and we were looking for a co-founder CEO.

所以 Hursh 来做创始人,我们再去找一个联合创始人兼 CEO。

And the first, he's like, I got to call Danny.

他的第一反应是:我得给 Danny 打个电话。

He's my best friend.

他是我最好的朋友。

He does this newsletter called Superorganizers.

他在做一个叫 Superorganizers 的 newsletter。

It's perfect.

他太合适了。

Uh, and maybe it would have been perfect.

而且说不定真的会很完美。

Maybe we'd be having a different podcast about how wildly profitable Arc is.

说不定我们今天录的会是另一期播客,聊 Arc 到底有多赚钱。

Uh um but the reason I say that is cuz the reason I ended up joining The Browser Company CEO in addition to really just wanting to work with Hursh again was this aha moment that actually the browser is arguably the most consumer piece of software in the world.

但我提这个是因为,我最后去 The Browser Company 当 CEO,除了真的就是想再和 Hursh 一起干之外,还有一个 aha moment:浏览器其实可以说是全世界最消费级的一款软件。

Like there are very few pieces of software that your mom and your second cousin and your partner all use.

很少有一款软件是你妈、你的远房表亲、你伴侣全都在用的。

Like 4 billion people use Chrome every month and nobody cares about it.

每个月有 40 亿人在用 Chrome,却没人在意它。

And most people don't have like a second browser for Netflix and shopping.

而且大多数人不会为了 Netflix 和网购再单独备一个浏览器。

And so if you care about what I personally have always cared the most about, which is how we as a society broadly use technology, then the motivation for me and I think the origins of the company was to build something at that level of ambition, even if that's not the idea that we pitched to you initially.

所以,如果你在意的是我个人一直最在意的那件事——我们整个社会是怎么使用技术的——那么我的动力,我觉得也是这家公司的起点,就是做一个野心在那个量级上的东西,哪怕那不是我们最初跟你 pitch 的那个想法。

And so that was never part of the calculation honestly for me and Hursh when we talked about like oh do we want to build a product with millions of people.

所以老实说,我和 Hursh 从来没把'我们要不要做一个数百万人在用的产品'算进过盘算里。

We I would have we would have capitalizes company completely differently if that was the goal.

如果目标是那个,我们当初给公司融资的方式会完全不一样。

We would have done so many things differently.

太多事情我们都会做得不一样。

So I think the idea of like why wouldn't you be okay with a you know couple million people browser that you know makes decent money.

所以'你为什么不能满足于一个两三百万人用、还挺赚钱的浏览器'——

It just comes back to why I personally got into software uh and what motivates me and her.

这个问题的答案,还是要回到我个人当初为什么进这行做软件,以及是什么在驱动我和他。

So I will say hopefully you know people have heard there are a lot of things that were hard.

我得说,希望大家已经听出来了,有很多事真的很难。

There are a lot of things that were unclear.

有很多事真的不清晰。

The why are we here?

但'我们为什么在这儿?'

Why did we start this company has been consistent and unwavering from uh our perspective.

'我们为什么创办这家公司'——在我们看来,这件事始终一致,从没动摇过。

I also like again were sort of fixating on Arc but the reason for this was was not just what do we do with Arc and how do we grow it was also how do we meet this moment you know and like we were just so inspired by oh my god like it's this platform shift is happening and what software is and can be is can be so different and so much more uh capable and look very different and and we have a specific skill set and team that's capable of building that interface future And so I think part of it was also just a deep inspiration for what's possible.

还有一点:我们又一直围着 Arc 说事,但这背后的原因不只是'Arc 怎么办、怎么把它做大',也是'我们怎么接住这个时刻'——我们真的被点着了,天啊,这场平台迁移正在发生,软件是什么、软件能是什么,可以完全不一样,能力强得多,长相也完全不同,而我们手上有一套特定的技能、有一支团队,做得出那个界面的未来;所以这里面也有一部分,纯粹就是被'什么是可能的'给深深点燃了。

And again, we didn't start with the idea we would start from scratch.

再说一次,我们一开始并没打算从零开始。

We started with this idea we would evolve Arc in that direction.

我们最初的想法是把 Arc 朝那个方向演进。

And then that ended up being much more difficult than we thought.

结果那件事比我们以为的难得多。

And so we started with Dia.

于是我们改从 Dia 起步。

And I also think as Hersed, it's like as the technology was evolving, as we were getting more familiar with it, uh it was getting more clear to other people what was valuable about it and where the points of leverage were.

我也觉得,就像 Hursh 说的,随着技术往前走、我们越来越熟悉它,别人也越来越清楚它的价值在哪、杠杆点在哪。

We also started to realize that the browser layer was going to be very central.

我们也开始意识到,浏览器这一层会非常关键。

Yeah.

对。

You know, at first it was sort of like, wait, we don't want to be that company.

一开始我们的反应有点像:等等,我们不想变成那种公司。

That's just because we got inspired doesn't mean you should pivot your company, right?

不能因为自己被点着了,就把公司转向,对吧?

They're inspiring things I see all the time.

让人心动的东西我天天都能看到。

I'm not like, hey, let's go start like an indie film company, right?

我又不会说,嘿,那我们去开家独立电影公司吧,对吧?

So, the thing that really did it was, okay, it feels really disconnected from everything I'm doing every day.

所以真正促成这件事的是:好吧,它跟我每天在做的所有事情完全是脱节的。

I'm spending a lot of time copy and pasting and context switching and exporting tabs as PDFs and weird stuff like that.

我每天花大量时间在复制粘贴、切换 context、把标签页导出成 PDF,还有诸如此类的怪操作上。

So being able to meet people where they are.

所以关键是能到用户已经在的地方去接住他们。

Again, the idea of memory and context.

还有,记忆和 context 这件事。

Like people didn't say context was king a year ago.

一年前人们不会说 context 为王。

Maybe you did, but most people do.

也许你说过,但大多数人是现在才说。

I did.

我说过。

Yeah.

对。

There you go.

你看吧。

This is why you got to subscribe to every you would have been a year early.

所以你们得订阅 Every——你本来能早一年知道。

But you know, starting to realize that, okay, the more that you tell these models, the more useful and personal they get.

但慢慢意识到:你告诉这些模型越多,它们就越有用、越贴着你这个人。

And I'm spending hours a day in this thing.

而我每天有好几个小时都泡在这东西里。

And then as Hursh said too, hey, we don't know anything about agents.

还有就像 Hursh 说的,嘿,我们对 agent 一无所知。

This is sort of out of our wheelhouse at the time at which was coming up, but it seems like the big promise is they're going to do some things and tools for you.

在 agent 刚起来的那阵子,这有点不在我们的射程里,但看起来它最大的承诺是:它们会替你做一些事、动用一些工具。

But wait a minute, that's not useful unless they're your tools with your authentication and we have your cookies.

可是等等,除非那些是你的工具、带着你的身份认证,而且你的 cookies 在我们手上,否则这没什么用。

So it was also again to Hursh's point of inspiration realizing that structurally and honestly felt like we had like you know been at the end of the rainbow before the rainbow came and all of a sudden like a pot of gold appeared and so it was sort of like all right I feel like we should probably try to open this pot.

所以这也回到 Hursh 说的那种被点燃的感觉:从结构上想明白这件事之后,老实说那感觉就像,彩虹还没来我们就先站在了彩虹尽头,然后突然一罐金子出现了;于是就变成:行吧,我觉得我们大概该试着把这罐子打开。

like this feels like the thing to do, you know.

感觉这就是该做的那件事。

Well, let's let's talk about what what you found when you opened the pot.

那我们就来聊聊,罐子打开之后你们发现了什么。

Like you guys made Dia and um I will say and I think this is this is an interesting testimonial given my uh my relationship to both of you and my relationship as an investor is like I I was always an Arc user but it was never my default browser.

你们做出了 Dia。我得说——考虑到我跟你们俩的关系,还有我作为投资人的关系,我觉得这是一段挺有意思的现身说法——我一直是 Arc 的用户,但它从来不是我的默认浏览器。

Safari was always my default browser and Dia is now my default browser.

Safari 一直是我的默认浏览器,而现在 Dia 是我的默认浏览器。

I switched from Safari.

我从 Safari 切过来了。

Um, hey, which like and and that's not like I love both of you, but like a browser is too personal for me to switch my browser because I like you clearly, Dan.

嘿,这不是……我很爱你们俩,但浏览器这东西太私人了,我不会因为喜欢你们就把自己的浏览器换掉。—— 那当然啊,Dan。

So, this is this is totally not for podcast purposes or anything like that.

所以这完全不是为了播客效果什么的。

like I just switched to it because I think the and this is maybe gets to your point.

我换过去,纯粹是因为——这可能正好接上你刚才的点。

One of your points about Arc is like I used Arc for certain like heavy research tasks and for podcasting specifically cuz like Riverside uh doesn't work in Safari.

你说到 Arc 的其中一点是:我用 Arc 是为了某些重度研究任务,还专门为了录播客,因为 Riverside 在 Safari 里跑不了。

You have to use a Chromium browser and I'd rather use Arc than Chrome.

你必须用 Chromium 系的浏览器,那我宁愿用 Arc,也不用 Chrome。

Um, but Safari is so lightweight and fast and Arc was never like that and uh and Dia is so fast and I was like this is really good and then it has the AI stuff in it which uh it it opens up a whole new way of using web pages for me that I I really love.

但 Safari 特别轻、特别快,Arc 从来不是这样;而 Dia 非常快,我当时就想,这真的很棒,而且它里面还有 AI 那些东西,给我打开了一整套全新的用网页的方式,我特别喜欢。

So it's like it's coming it's definitely I think a lot of what you're saying is coming through for me.

所以我觉得,你说的很多东西在我这儿确实是接上了。

Um, and it's been really cool to to see it like get launched and get the reception it's gotten.

看到它发布出来、拿到这样的反响,真的挺酷的。

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现在回到节目。

Well, Hursh, it's honestly it's worth talking about the architectural decisions cuz that was a whole another thing.

Hursh,老实说架构上那些决定值得聊聊,因为那完全是另一回事了。

We decided to just be like, why don't we do this completely differently too while we're at it?

我们当时就想:既然都动手了,为什么不把这块也彻底换个做法?

Yeah, we really had a so arc was really built around how do we prototype as fast as possible and we made some shortcuts in the architecture to enable that which had some performance impact.

对,Arc 整个是围绕'怎么尽可能快地出原型'搭起来的,为了做到这点,我们在架构上抄了一些近道,而这带来了一些性能上的代价。

Interesting.

有意思。

Uh and so we were really optimizing for how do we prototype and build new features um and in a way that we can do them quickly and just quickly what was the architecture?

所以我们真正优化的是:怎么快速做原型、快速做出新功能。—— 那快速说一下,当时的架构是什么?

uh it used a kind of Redux type state-driven architecture which is a little crazy for a uh desktop app but allowed us to move really quickly.

它用的是一种类似 Redux 的 state-driven(状态驱动)架构,放在桌面应用上有点疯狂,但让我们跑得非常快。

Um over time it became really complex to manage uh which was an issue but also performance uh was a big concern and re redux is like the the meta like react framework or way of thinking about how to pass information from a UI layer to uh to back to the server and all that kind of stuff.

时间一长,它管起来变得极其复杂,这是个问题;性能上也很让人担心。—— Redux 算是 React 那套体系里的代表性框架,或者说一套关于怎么把信息从 UI 层传回服务器的思路。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Um, and so, you know, we had a a real choice last summer on when we're building Dia, do we build it on the same architecture or do we build something uh new that's really fast?

所以去年夏天做 Dia 的时候,我们面临一个真实的选择:是沿用同一套架构,还是另做一套真正快的?

And I think part of the I mean certainly the engineering team was really excited about an architecture that we were excited about that uh fixed a lot of performance problems uh that Arc had.

我觉得一部分原因是——工程团队确实对这套新架构很兴奋,我们也兴奋,因为它修掉了 Arc 身上一大堆性能问题。

Uh but also it it was ced strategy.

但这同时也是战略决定的。

you know, if the strategy was a mass market browser that uh people would ideally use irrespective of the AI features that it had to be fast and it had to be uh you know, just be a really really good browser.

如果战略是做一款大众市场的浏览器,理想情况下人们不管它有没有 AI 功能都会用,那它就必须快,必须本身就是一款非常非常好的浏览器。

What did you figure out about how to make something performant?

那关于怎么把东西做得高性能,你们摸出了什么?

Um I honestly a lot of it has been Swift.

老实说,很大一部分靠的是 Swift。

Um Swift has this new uh structured concurrency uh mechanism that allows you to just move a lot of stuff off the main thread.

Swift 新增了 structured concurrency(结构化并发)机制,能把很多活儿挪出 main thread(主线程)。

So just leaning uh really heavily into that has been helpful.

所以我们在这上面压得很重,确实有用。

And then shout out to uh some of our incredible architects Max and Adam who built this entirely new architecture that allows us to move faster than Arc but also deals with a lot of the performance problems. So Oh, so you figured out a way to still do prototyping quickly.

另外要感谢我们几位了不起的架构师 Max 和 Adam,是他们搭出了这套全新架构,让我们比做 Arc 时跑得更快,同时也解决掉很多性能问题。—— 哦,所以你们找到了一条还能快速做原型的路。

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Exactly.

没错。

And the reason I think it's relevant is one of the ways I think we got the team really on board is we sort of went to a bunch of our best most creative people and said, "Hey, you get a blank page, too." So, you know, this had been a topic that's these architectural challenges and latency.

我觉得这件事之所以相关,是因为我们让团队真正上船的方式之一,就是去找我们最好、最有创造力的那批人,跟他们说:「嘿,你也拿到一张白纸。」这些架构上的难题、还有延迟,本来一直就是个老话题。

These have been themes we talked forever.

这些主题我们聊了很久很久。

So, we just sort of went person to person and said, "Hey, start over.

所以我们就一个一个去找人,说:「嘿,从头开始。

You got to do your most be your most abundant self dream.

你得做那个最丰盈的自己,去做梦。

Come on.

来吧。

What are the things that you always regret?

有哪些事是你一直觉得后悔的?

This is the moment to do like you know." So I will say once the ball started rolling people were able to find their kind of corners and pockets of what we were trying to do to either fix mistakes we made with Arc or do that thing they always wanted to do.

现在就是干这些事的时刻。」我得说,一旦球滚起来,大家都能在我们要做的这件事里找到属于自己的那一角、那一块——要么去修我们在 Arc 上犯的错,要么去做那件自己一直想做的事。

You know, you can you can feel it in Dia.

你在 Dia 里能感觉到这一点。

There are parts of it that there I hope there's some kernels of The Browser Company that are consistent across it, but there are also some things where I think you can feel a group of people that said, "No, we're really going to flex on this one." And we're not going to flex on this one in a way that's like arc coded, but in a way that is what this should be right now.

它有些部分——我希望里面有一些贯穿始终的 The Browser Company 底色——但也有些地方,你能感觉到一群人说:「不行,这一块我们要真秀一把。」而这个秀法不是「很 Arc」的那种,而是「它现在就该是这样」的那种。

Um, so I think you can feel that intentionality personally in the product relative to Arc.

所以跟 Arc 相比,我个人觉得你能在产品里感到那种刻意。

And one discussion we had uh when we were building this out also was it's it's funny seeing M.G. Siegler's uh post now about how AI browsers are going to take off and we're like sort of kicking off this race.

我们做这套东西的时候还有过一场讨论——现在看到 M.G. Siegler 那篇文章讲 AI 浏览器要起飞、说我们算是打响了这场竞赛,挺有意思的。

But that was a discussion we had about the architecture which is like we have so much conviction in this route that when we launch this if we are the first ones we're going to kick off a race and so how do we build an architecture from the ground up that allows us to move quickly in that race by the time we launch this.

但那正是我们当时围绕架构讨论过的:我们对这条路线信念极强,所以等发布的时候,如果我们是第一个,就会打响一场竞赛;那我们要怎么从零搭一套架构,让发布之后能在这场竞赛里跑得快。

Uh and so that was a lot of the input as well.

所以这也是当时的一大依据。

Yeah, Hursh and I had a very seminal conversation for us at least on that San Francisco trip I mentioned and Hir flew out um the next day before me and sent me this long long essay in a way that you know I don't get long long essays from hers you know uh and one of the things that Hursh had the foresight to see in this new world was that it's not about the browser the browser is almost incidental right the real opportunity and I think the language her used at the time was this truly personal assistant.

在我提到的那趟旧金山之行里,Hursh 和我有过一次对话,至少对我们来说非常关键。Hursh 第二天比我先飞走,给我发了一篇很长很长的文章——你知道,我平时是收不到 Hursh 写长文的。Hursh 在这个新世界里有先见之明地看到一点:重点不在浏览器,浏览器几乎是附带的;真正的机会——我记得他当时的说法是「一个真正个人化的助手」。

I think all of us right now are grasping for what the right nouns are for the work that we're doing.

我觉得我们现在所有人都还在摸索该用什么词来称呼自己正在做的事。

But Hursh had the foresight to say, hey, it's not really about the browser part.

但 Hursh 有先见之明地说:嘿,重点其实不在浏览器这部分。

That is necessary, but that's not what the where the value is going to come from.

浏览器是必要的,但价值不会从那里来。

That's what's going to enable the thing you're turning to it for.

它让你真正为之而来的那个东西成为可能。

Almost like the iPhone isn't really a cell phone.

有点像 iPhone 其实并不是一部手机。

I mean, it is and you get that utility out of it, but that's not why the iPhone is so powerful.

它当然是手机,你也确实用到了这份用处,但 iPhone 之所以这么强大,不是因为这个。

And I think in the moment for me I was like seems a little far-fetched but hope he's right.

当时我心里想的是:听着有点牵强,但希望他说对了。

And as time has gone on I think his his his instincts were in retrospect absolutely correct.

时间往后走,回头看,他的直觉完全正确。

You know even the original uh vision video we put out for Arc talked about this idea of an internet computer.

我们当初为 Arc 发的那支愿景视频里,就讲过 internet computer(互联网计算机)这个想法。

And we very much said, "We have no idea what that means." But based on the trend lines in our industry, it seems absolutely certain that what feels like your computer in five or 10 years is actually going to be this layer that sits across all of your devices of all shapes and sizes because all of your apps and files are on the web now.

而我们当时说得很明白:「我们完全不知道这意味着什么。」但按我们这个行业的趋势线看,几乎可以肯定:5 年或 10 年后,那个让你觉得是「我的电脑」的东西,其实会是横跨你所有设备(不管什么形态、什么尺寸)的一层,因为你的应用和文件现在都在网上。

And so I didn't really connect it at the time, but what Hursh was saying was essentially this is the internet computer.

所以我当时并没真的把两件事连起来,但 Hursh 说的本质上就是:这就是 internet computer。

You're going to have desktop browsers and mobile apps and all sorts of things.

你会有桌面浏览器、手机应用,还有各种各样的东西。

And on top of it is going to be this personal assistant or this intelligence for you and it's going to benefit from the fact that it can intercept your queries on the new tab page and that it sees the docs you're writing in your browser tabs and it remembers the things you did last week.

而在这些之上,会有一个为你服务的个人助手、或者说一份属于你的智能;它会从这几件事上受益:能在新标签页截住你的查询,能看见你在浏览器标签页里写的文档,还记得你上周做过什么。

But you're not turning to it for the tabs.

但你转向它,不是为了标签页。

You're not even turning to it for the desktop part.

你甚至也不是为了桌面那部分才转向它。

What you're turning to it for is this personal intelligence layer that is a wild invention in humanity that's going to help you do all sorts of things and it's going to be miraculous.

你转向它,是为了这个个人智能层——人类一项狂野的发明,它会帮你做各种各样的事,简直像奇迹。

But don't forget the browser is just the enabling technology underneath.

但别忘了,浏览器只是底下那层让这一切跑起来的技术。

It's not the main event.

它不是主角。

So you can imagine how getting in front of The Browser Company of New York's employees, makers of a popular web browser called Arc that helps you with tab management in novel ways couldn't really nail that messaging in the moment.

所以你可以想象一下,站在 The Browser Company of New York 的员工面前——这家公司做的是一款叫 Arc 的热门浏览器,以新颖的方式帮你管标签页——我当时实在没能把这套话讲明白。

But in retrospect, I think that long email hers was extremely prescient regardless of if we win this race, if it's even zero sum.

但回头看,我觉得 Hursh 那封长邮件极有预见性——不管我们赢不赢这场竞赛,甚至不管它到底是不是零和的。

But it it it he had the foresight of connecting it to the internet computer idea that kind of underpinned Arc.

他有那种先见之明,把它跟撑着 Arc 的 internet computer 那个想法连上了。

That's that's a couple things that I think are interesting here about like lessons that it seems like you guys have learned about building the future and and some things that I've definitely seen at every uh like trying to do the same thing is um one when GPT-3 was first a thing everyone was like this is going to be an incumbent enabling technology like Google and Microsoft they're just going to like put a chat bot put a chat box on the on the right side of Chrome and like they're going to put it in Google Docs and like everything is just going to be like for the incumbents.

这里有几件事我觉得挺有意思,关于你们在做未来这件事上学到的教训,也是我在 Every 试着做同样的事时确实见到过的。第一,GPT-3 刚出来那会儿,所有人都说这会是一项利好巨头的赋能技术——比如 Google 和 Microsoft,他们只要在 Chrome 右边放个聊天机器人、放个聊天框,再塞进 Google Docs,一切都会归巨头。

And I think one of the things you were saying earlier is just getting to go to people at Arc and be or people at The Browser Company and be like you have a blank page.

你刚才说的其中一点是:能去找 Arc 的人——或者说 The Browser Company 的人——跟他们说,你有一张白纸。

The the level of creativity that you get there is so high and the level of power that you get is so high that it's actually I think impossible for most incumbents um unless they're starting from scratch which is really hard to do to just like slap AI onto this and actually build that layer that you're talking about.

你在那里拿到的创造力之高、拿到的能量之大,以至于我觉得大多数巨头根本做不到——除非他们从零开始,而那非常难——他们没法只把 AI 拍上去,就真做出你说的那一层。

And another thing that I think is really interesting that I've definitely found as both a builder and a writer is um it can be really hard to pitch the future to talk about the future in a way that anyone understands.

还有一件我觉得很有意思的事,我自己既做产品也写东西,确实体会到:要推销未来、要用别人听得懂的方式谈未来,有时真的非常难。

Um you have to build it.

你得把它做出来。

You have to like prototype it.

你得做个原型出来。

You have to like feel it and see it.

你得能摸到它、看到它。

And that's the only way that that that then you can talk about it in a way that people understand.

只有这样,你才能用别人听得懂的方式讲它。

And it sounds like that's that's sort of what you found is you had this sense that you could express but any way you expressed it, everyone was like you're crazy.

听起来这差不多就是你们的经历:你们心里有个感觉,也说得出来,但不管怎么说,所有人都觉得你疯了。

Um but then once you started to actually like prototype it, that's how you found a way to talk about it in a way that people can understand.

可等你们真的动手做原型,才找到了一种别人能听懂的说法。

Yeah.

是的。

And two stories actually that come to mind that are very relevant.

我一下想到两个特别应景的故事。

So Hursh and I, our first company was uh aqua hired by Facebook when we were I don't know 22 or something.

Hursh 和我的第一家公司被 Facebook acqui-hire(收购式招聘)走了,当时我们大概 22 岁吧。

And I'll never forget this all internal RIP branch.

我永远忘不了那次内部全员会——RIP Branch(悼念 Branch)。

RIP branch.

RIP Branch。

RIP branch.

RIP Branch。

Uh for the real ones out there that remember, uh I will never forget this internal all hands at Facebook where Zuckerberg stood up and had this whole presentation about how in 5 years everything was going to be video.

还记得这事的老伙计们应该懂——我永远忘不了 Facebook 那次内部全员会,Zuckerberg 站起来,做了一整场演示,讲 5 年后一切都会变成视频。

Social media was going to be video.

社交媒体会变成视频。

And I thought he was nuts.

我当时觉得他疯了。

I was like, this disconnected billionaire, does he know how slow it is to watch a video on your phone?

我心想,这个脱离现实的亿万富翁,他知道在手机上看视频有多慢吗?

And then like even if you could fix the buffering issues, why would you pick a tiny little screen in your pocket?

而且就算缓冲的问题能解决,干嘛要挑口袋里那块小屏幕?

Like what is he thinking?

他到底在想什么?

And in retrospect, that proclamation and honestly others that he made, even if he didn't capitalize on it, he was right.

可回头看,那个论断,老实说还有他讲过的其他论断,即便他自己没吃到那份红利,他是对的。

You know, I remember 5 years later, it's like, yep, TikTok's definitely a thing.

我记得 5 年之后,就是那种感觉——没错,TikTok 确实成了。

And so I think part of what Hursh and I took from that experience in different ways and similar experiences like hey if you're going to start a company one of the you mentioned branch me and Hursh's first company the origin story was a hackathon prototype and my takeaway from that and that experience was like if you start a company based on a prototype you don't have a kind of fundamental internal guidepost when inevitably your prototype is going to fail and so the intention of The Browser Company inspired by our experience with branch observations of Zuckerberg at Facebook was don't pretend like you have all the answers, but even just directionally.

所以我觉得,Hursh 和我从那段经历、还有别的类似经历里,各自以不同方式学到的一点是:如果你要创业——你提到了 Branch,我和 Hursh 的第一家公司,它的起点是一个 hackathon 原型——我从那件事、那段经历里得到的体会是,如果创业是建在一个原型上,那等你的原型不可避免地失败时,你心里就没有一根根本性的指路标;所以 The Browser Company 的初衷,来自我们做 Branch 的经历和在 Facebook 看 Zuckerberg 的那些观察:别假装你手上有全部答案,但方向总得有一个。

Are you heading you're in LA?

你要去哪——你在 LA?

You're going on a road trip.

你要开一趟公路旅行。

You're going to New York or Miami.

你要去 New York 或者 Miami。

You may not know how you're going to get there and you may hate Miami and Miami might be not be as cool as you think, but pick a destination that is 5 10 years out and run towards it.

你可能不知道自己要怎么到那儿,你可能讨厌 Miami,Miami 也可能没你想的那么酷,但你得挑一个 5 到 10 年之后的目的地,然后朝它跑。

And so the internet computer idea was that for us um and was pretty central, I think, to our ability then with Dia as well to to kind of just go for it.

对我们来说,internet computer(互联网计算机)就是这样一个目的地,我觉得它也很关键地撑住了我们后来在 Dia 上放手一搏。

What I think is interesting too about that is just to just to push on it a little bit because I think there's a thing that if you're a builder listening to this um you might take away that I don't know is actually what you actually mean.

我觉得这里还有个有意思的点,我想稍微追问一下——因为如果你是个做产品的人,听这期节目可能会得出一个结论,而我不确定那是不是你真正的意思。

Um is that you can see the future in front of you and you're just going to go figure out how to build it and yeah you don't know the route but like you know you're going to San Francisco or you know you're going to New York or whatever.

那个结论是:你能看见眼前的未来,剩下的只是去搞清楚怎么造出来;对,你不知道路线,但你知道自己要去 San Francisco,或者要去 New York,诸如此类。

But I think what's interesting about the internet computer idea is what the internet computer meant changed.

但我觉得 internet computer 这个想法有意思的地方在于,internet computer 的含义本身变了。

Yeah.

是的。

And um so you're you're sort of you have this broad sense that there's going to be um a different way of interacting uh with computers and that you wanted to build that.

所以你们隐约有个大方向上的感觉:人和计算机打交道的方式会变成另一种样子,而你们想把它造出来。

But what you thought that was going to be is actually very different than the thing that you ended up building cuz you had no idea that AI was going to be such a thing when when you started 5 and a half years ago.

但你们当时以为它会长成什么样,跟最后真造出来的差得很远,因为 5 年半前你们起步的时候,根本没想到 AI 会成这么大的事。

Um, and I think that's really interesting too and that's definitely been consistent with my feeling about every um you know like when we were when we were talking about super organizers I was like I want to build this newsletter and then I'm going to like launch products this to the newsletter.

我觉得这一点也很有意思,而且跟我对 Every 的感受完全一致——比如当初我们聊 Superorganizers,我想的是先做这份 newsletter,再靠它去发产品。

We're doing the same thing now, but it looks so different and and why it works is so different because of AI.

我们现在做的还是同一件事,但样子完全不同,能跑通的原因也完全不同——因为 AI。

And I think that's a really interesting thing is to watch that vision unfold and fill in the the details of what that actually means as the world evolves and your product evolves and you learn new things.

我觉得真正有意思的就是看着那个愿景一点点展开:世界在变,产品在变,你也学到新东西,它究竟意味着什么,细节才一点点填进来。

Yeah.

是的。

I think that that that uh point applies to that video story that I told you where at the moment Zuckerberg was saying you're going to share the same types of uh personal vulnerable updates that you do today in video now.

我觉得这个道理也适用于我刚讲的那个视频故事——当时 Zuckerberg 说的是,你今天分享的那类私人的、袒露脆弱的动态,以后会改成视频来发。

And while there's some of that, I remember I the the moment I made the connection back to what Zuckerberg said at the all hands and even realized that video had become a thing was I had the opportunity to uh meet Evan Spiegel from Snapchat.

确实有一部分成了这样;但我记得,真正让我把它跟 Zuckerberg 在全员会上那番话对上、甚至意识到视频真的成了气候的那一刻,是我有机会见到 Snapchat 的 Evan Spiegel。

I think it was in like 2019 and I was like all right I got to ask him one question.

我想那是 2019 年,我心想,好,我得问他一个问题。

So my question for him was like what's one thing that's really inspiring you right now?

于是我问他:现在有什么东西真正在启发你?

And he told me about this app from China or called TikTok which again it was pretty popular at the time but I hadn't really come across it and I was like oh why is it inspiring?

他跟我讲了一个来自中国的 app,叫 TikTok——那会儿它其实已经挺火了,但我真没接触过,我就问,哦,它哪里启发你了?

He's like, "It made it so anyone can be a celebrity for a day." And I remember being confused by the description, but you can kind of see that he was right and and kind of capturing what was unique about TikTok.

他说:“它让任何人都能当一天名人。”我记得我被这个说法搞糊涂了,但你能看出他说对了,也抓住了 TikTok 真正独特的地方。

That was very different than what Zuckerberg said.

那跟 Zuckerberg 说的很不一样。

That is not friends sharing intimate videos with each other in a news feed.

那不是朋友之间在 news feed 里互相分享私密视频。

And so the point of being able to say where the world is going directionally is definitely not, you know, the details.

所以,能说出世界在方向上往哪走,重点绝对不在细节。

Um, but it's still I think you know really important and it's tricky.

但我觉得这件事依然很重要,而且很棘手。

One of the things especially in our media cycle is you know we built Arc in public but we also built it with prototypes and buil you know sharing everything and so when we shared the internet computer video I honestly remember people internally being like man this seems kind of like why are we adding this branding?

尤其在我们这种媒体节奏下有件事很难办:Arc 是公开做的,我们也靠原型来做、什么都往外分享,所以当我们把 internet computer 那条视频发出去时,老实说我记得内部有人在嘀咕,老兄,这看着有点……我们干嘛要加这层品牌包装?

What exactly does it mean?

它到底是什么意思?

But at least we had built a little bit of trust to say for people to say like okay I like the things they're putting out so I don't know maybe they know it.

但我们至少攒下了一点信任,够让人说一句:行吧,我喜欢他们放出来的东西,那说不定他们真知道自己在干什么。

At the time with Dia, it was even more of a kind of high conviction bet on where the future was going.

而做 Dia 那会儿,这更是一次押在未来走向上的高信念下注。

But we did not have an audience that wanted any proclamations from us about AI.

但我们的受众根本不想听我们对 AI 发表什么宣言。

And again, ourselves sort of questioned like, you know, were we right?

而且我们自己也在打问号:我们真的对吗?

And so, one of the interesting things about Dia was there was a larger disconnect developing it than Arc between the internal feelings uh and beliefs that we had and like what we could say publicly.

所以 Dia 有意思的一点是,做它的时候,我们内部的感受和信念跟能对外公开说的话之间,脱节比 Arc 时更大。

And so that was also kind of an interesting part of building Dia versus versus Arc.

所以这也是做 Dia 和做 Arc 之间挺有意思的一处不同。

What made it trickier also was because we bet on the scaling laws and the curves and so a lot of our conviction wasn't even possible last year, you know, and so Oh yeah, GPT-4o made Dia work.

还有一点让这事更棘手:我们押的是 scaling laws 和那些曲线,所以我们很多信念在去年根本还不可能成立——是啊,是 GPT-4o 让 Dia 跑通了。

Like when we started working on Dia, I might get my dates slightly off, but I distinctly remember messaging our person at OpenAI and being like, "This model made our thing happen." Yeah.

比如我们刚开始做 Dia 的时候——日期我可能记得不太准——但我清楚记得,我给我们在 OpenAI 的对接人发消息说:"这个模型让我们那东西成了。"是的。

It's crazy.

太疯狂了。

Like we we've had that same thing where you're you're working on something, you're trying to build something, it's not working, you're doing all this prompting, you're doing all this like architecting to like spring string different models together.

我们也碰到过一模一样的情况:你在做一个东西,想把它造出来,可它就是不成,你不停地写 prompt,不停地搭架构,把不同的模型串起来。

And then we had this happen with Opus 4 recently like it just worked.

然后最近在 Opus 4 上我们就遇到了这种情况——它直接就成了。

Yeah.

是的。

And it was like okay we can throw out three months of work because now it it just like it just one shots it.

当时的感觉就是,好吧,三个月的活可以全扔掉了,因为现在它一次就搞定(one-shot)。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean I really a really a great example of that from Dia is you know to me the core idea of Dia is this idea that it should get better with every tab you open.

Dia 身上就有一个特别好的例子:在我看来,Dia 的核心想法就是,你每开一个标签页,它就变得更好用。

Just like every time you swipe a video in TikTok it feels like it's getting to know you and it's more useful to you.

就像你在 TikTok 上每划过一个视频,都感觉它更懂你一点,对你也更有用一点。

That's how Dia should get feel and get better with age.

Dia 就该是这种感觉,越用越好。

And Hursh had the foresight to know that context and memory and personalization were going to be the thing that ended up differentiating when all of the models and intelligence commoditized or looked that way.

而 Hursh 早就有先见之明:他知道,等所有模型、所有智能都被商品化,或者看上去被商品化了,最后能拉开差距的会是 context、记忆和个性化。

It was going to be the thing that was most personal.

会是最个人化的那部分。

So Hursh and a team worked on memory for 9 months and at some point we killed the project.

所以 Hursh 带一支团队在记忆上做了 9 个月,然后到某个时刻,我们把这个项目砍了。

We just tossed it away.

直接扔掉了。

We're like guess it's not going to have memory.

我们当时想,看来它是不会有记忆了。

And then 6 weeks before launch it was like wait a minute.

然后发布前 6 周,大家又说,等等。

I think the fact that had this context window over here like well no no let's try this approach let's do memory one more time and oh my god that was a thing to deal with internally that project that we just tossed away after 9 months having this high like top down conviction like we're going to do it again right before this big launch we've been working for for a year and again I don't want to say it's worked cuz it's too early but like it's looking pretty prescient again from Hursh um but but again that was enabled uh in a span of 6 months the fundamental building blocks changed enough and our understanding of how to wield them that a thing that we smart people banged against for 9 months didn't happen and then it happened pretty much overnight uh and cost and latency and yeah all that stuff.

我觉得正是因为这边有了 context window,才有人说,不不不,我们换这个路子试试,记忆再做一次吧——天啊,那件事在内部真的难处理:一个我们做了 9 个月又扔掉的项目,现在自上而下来了这么强的信念,说要在这场我们做了一整年的大发布之前再来一遍;还是那句话,我不想说它已经成了,因为现在还太早,但看起来 Hursh 又一次相当有先见之明;不过同样,这件事之所以能成,是因为在 6 个月里,底层的基础构件变了足够多,我们对怎么驾驭它们的理解也变了,以至于一群聪明人硬撞了 9 个月都没撞开的事,几乎一夜之间就成了——还有成本、延迟,以及所有那些东西。

Um tell me about yeah you've gotten it out in the wild.

那跟我讲讲——你们已经把它放到真实世界里了。

You have this thesis that it's going to get better with every tab you open which I love.

你们有一个主张:你每开一个标签页,它就变得更好用——我特别喜欢这个说法。

I think that's such a clean way.

我觉得这话说得太利落了。

That's such a Josh like Joshism like perfect.

这太 Josh 了,一句典型的 Joshism,完美。

I love it.

我很喜欢。

Um awesome.

太棒了。

Means a lot coming from you.

你这么说,对我意义很大。

What are people using it for that has surprised you or you know what have you what have you learned getting it out in the wild that you didn't know?

有哪些用法让你意外?或者说,把它真放到外面之后,你学到了哪些原来不知道的东西?

Curious your take, Josh.

想听听你的看法,Josh。

I think I'm surprised that people see what we see as quickly as they did.

让我意外的是,人们这么快就看到了我们看到的东西。

I thought this was going to be a really painful moment for us and I prepped and hers and I prepped the team for that.

我原以为这对我们会是一段特别难受的时期,我还给团队打了预防针,Hursh 和我一起打的。

Hey, it's going to be a somewhat tricky, brutal summer because Dia is so basic.

嘿,这个夏天会有点难熬、会挺残酷的,因为 Dia 太基础了。

Cuz again, keep in mind the idea of Dia is not the browser bit.

因为还是那句话,记住,Dia 的想法不在浏览器那部分。

It's not the tab management.

不在标签页管理。

It's not the things you can see.

不在你能看见的那些地方。

It's all these capabilities that Hursh and the team have built under the hood.

而在 Hursh 和团队在底层做出来的这一整套能力。

They were like, "Oh, if we just like then piece them together, we can build this application platform for AI." But that wasn't what we released two weeks ago.

他们当时是这么想的:"哦,只要把这些拼起来,我们就能造出一个给 AI 用的应用平台。"但两周前发布出去的并不是这个。

You know, we released the building blocks under the hood, but the hood was pretty basic.

我们发布出去的是底层那些基础构件,但露在外面的那层还很简单。

And we thought it was useful, but we thought it was going to just get trolled.

我们觉得它有用,但也觉得它会被喷。

Yeah.

是的。

I kept asking Hursh for access, and he was like, "Oh, like later, like soon." And he did the alpha for what it's worth.

我一直跟 Hursh 要权限,他老是说:"哦,晚点,快了。"不过说句公道话,他确实做了 alpha。

We got absolutely trapped.

我们被彻底困住了。

My friends and family were so nervous about me because my style of of of friendship and working on what I do is I enthusiastically want them on early and their feedback.

我朋友和家人都特别替我紧张,因为我交朋友、做事情的风格是,我恨不得他们早早就用上,还给我反馈。

admission, my wife, who I've been with for, you know, over a decade, didn't try Dia until launch.

坦白一句:我妻子,我们在一起十多年了,一直到发布才试 Dia。

That makes me feel so much better because I was like, hers is just like, I don't know what's going on, but like, are we growing apart?

这让我好受多了,因为我当时想,Hursh 就是那样,我不知道出了什么事,但我们俩是不是在渐行渐远?

And and and that shows you I actually felt like an artist, not in terms of an artist in terms of our, you know, quality or, but just like the nerves to put this like personal work out in the world.

而这也说明,我当时真的觉得自己像个艺术家——不是说我们的质量有多高,而单单是那种把这么私人的作品放到世界上时的紧张。

So, the biggest surprise is people got it right away despite in its biggest in its current state in terms of what it's useful for.

所以最大的惊喜是,人们一上手就懂了——尽管就它现在这个状态、就它眼下能派上什么用场来说……

What do you think they get?

你觉得他们懂了什么?

I think M.G.'s post really captures it, which is you can sort of feel the new latent possibilities underneath the surface by fusing these things together.

我觉得 M.G. 那篇文章真的说到了点子上:把这些东西融到一起之后,你能隐约感觉到表面底下那些新的、还没被打开的可能性。

Like really what Hursh and the team did is they broke apart the browser and they rebuilt it, put the pieces back together with models in every core part.

Hursh 和团队真正做的,是把浏览器拆开再重建,把零件重新拼回去,每个核心部件里都嵌进了模型。

And so you can't visually see that, but as you start using the product, like this morning actually, I saw uh someone shared that they're they clearly been using Dia for a couple weeks.

所以这一点你在视觉上看不出来,但一旦开始用就会发现——比如就今天早上,我看到有人分享,他显然已经用 Dia 用了好几个星期。

So people like discover like these little Easter eggs like, "Oh, I can do this." And what they found is when they look up songs on YouTube, they can ask it for the tab chords so they can play it on their guitar.

人们会挖出这些小彩蛋:“哦,原来还能这么干。”他们发现的是,在 YouTube 上查一首歌的时候,可以让它给出吉他谱,好拿吉他照着弹。

That's sick.

这也太带劲了。

I wouldn't need to use that.

我自己是用不上这个。

I I actually do this all the time where I like send YouTube videos to Gemini and then have it tell me the like the transcribe the piano. Um so I'm going to have to that.

我其实经常这么干:把 YouTube 视频发给 Gemini,让它把钢琴部分转成谱子。所以这个我得去试试。

And so I think people finding the like it's subtle but it's so much more convenient and so much more powerful to do it when the 1 plus 1 equals 3.

所以我觉得,人们发现的这件事很微妙,但当 1+1=3 的时候,做同一件事就是方便得多、也强大得多。

The big surprise on the product side was sort of that observation taken to its extreme which you would never put hey you know what you can do in dia on our website you can look up the tab chords for the guitar when you're watching a video on YouTube it's so personal it's so the tam of that is tiny and a couple weeks before launch because our big vision for dia is that actually it's this kind of application platform that people will build things on top of was like we should gesture at that just a little bit right so let's we have this concept cept of skills which are effectively AI apps.

产品这边最大的惊喜,是把那个观察推到了极致——你绝不会在官网上写“嘿,你知道 Dia 能干什么吗?你在 YouTube 上看视频的时候可以查吉他谱”,这太私人了,这么一件事的 TAM 太小了;而发布前几周,因为我们对 Dia 的大愿景本来就是把它做成一种应用平台、让人们在上面搭东西,我们就想,那至少该朝那个方向指一指,对吧?所以——我们有 skills 这个概念,实质上就是 AI 应用。

Um we have a couple that are first party but they're really basic.

我们自己做了几个第一方的,但都非常基础。

Just for people who are listening that that haven't used it like what is a skill in Dia?

先给还在听、还没用过的人说一下,Dia 里的 skill 到底是什么?

Yeah.

嗯。

Uh a skill in Dia is the equivalent of an or we hope will be the equivalent of an application on an iPhone or on a on a computer.

Dia 里的 skill 相当于——或者说我们希望它以后能相当于——iPhone 上或者电脑上的一个应用。

But in this kind of AI world, what it is is it's a uh a system prompt uh a model or number of models uh tool use uh and stringing those things together to do something for you.

但在 AI 的世界里,它其实就是一个 system prompt、一个或几个模型、tool use,把这些串起来,替你做成某件事。

So, uh, someone might make a skill that is my job is to do sales and I look at leads on the internet every day and, uh, when I see a lead, I have to look up X information about them and extract Y information and consider Z framework and they kind of put that logic and framework and tool use into a skill to kind of aid them in what they do every day.

所以可能有人会做这么一个 skill:我的工作是销售,我每天在网上看线索,看到一条线索,我得查他的 X 信息、抽出 Y 信息、再套一遍 Z 框架——他们就把这套逻辑、框架和 tool use 装进一个 skill,帮自己完成每天要干的事。

But in the current version of the product that we released, the the platform is still extremely limited.

但在我们已经发布的这一版里,这个平台还极其有限。

And so we weren't going to let anyone make their own because we were waiting till later this summer when we could actually expose those the really cool building blocks, reasoning models, memory, and the like.

所以我们本来不打算让任何人自己做,想等到今年夏天晚些时候,那会儿才能真正把那些特别酷的构件放出来——推理模型、记忆之类的。

But we're like, okay, we got to gesture at it because that's why we're here.

但我们想,好吧,还是得指一下那个方向,因为这才是我们干这件事的原因。

We w this big internal memo about the app strategy.

我们写了一份很长的内部备忘录,讲应用策略。

And so we expose the ability to make the most basic custom skills possible that are basically just little prompts and added a week before launch.

于是我们放开了做最基础的自定义 skills 的能力,基本上就是些小 prompt,发布前一周才加进去。

it has exploded in terms of what people are doing and is now essentially the whole company is just building out the skills platform now.

人们拿它做出来的东西已经爆了,现在基本上整个公司都在建这个 skills 平台。

And the reason that that relates to the uh tab cord example is that one of the things we used to say with Arc was that you know no one cares about their browser but they spend hours a day in it.

它之所以跟前面那个吉他谱的例子有关,是因为我们做 Arc 的时候常说一句话:没人在乎自己的浏览器,可每天要在里面待好几个小时。

It should feel like your home on the internet.

它应该让人觉得像是你在互联网上的家。

Why do we all live in these like drab hotel rooms online where all of ours look the same run by Google?

凭什么我们在网上都住在这种单调乏味的酒店房间里,每个人的都一模一样,还全由 Google 打理?

it should feel as cozy as this background you're in right now.

它应该像你现在坐着的这个背景一样让人惬意。

And you're seeing that principle play out whether it's the first party features like chatting with your tabs and people finding use cases that um are new and very personal to them to people being like wait a minute you're saying I can make my own one of these that like when I'm doing my workflow for my job can do exactly what I want it to do.

而你正看到这条原则一点点应验:既有像“和你的标签页聊天”这样的第一方功能,也有人找到那些全新的、对他们很私人的用法,还有人反应过来——等一下,你是说我可以自己做一个,让它在我为工作跑流程的时候,完全照我想要的来?

It's almost like the normie and I'm saying that for myself.

几乎就是“普通人”那一挂——我说的是我自己。

I'm a sociology major that doesn't know how to code.

我是社会学专业出身,不会写代码。

Everyone's looking around and seeing cursor and Replit and Lovable and these companies just explo wow you can make new things and there are people like me being like wait I I want to make new things and I think we're tapping into something there of like almost like handmade software like people wanting to make things for themselves like me that I I literally had to hound hers at a hackathon in New York when I was 20 and beg him to make something with me because it was the only way I could express my ideas in software was to hope that someone like Hursh would want to make something with me.

大家都在四处张望,看到 Cursor、Replit、Lovable 这些公司爆发式起飞,哇,原来你能造出新东西了;然后就有像我这样的人说,等等,我也想造新东西。我觉得我们在这儿戳到了某种东西,几乎就是手作软件——像我这样的人,想为自己做点东西。我 20 岁那年在纽约的一场 hackathon 上,真的是死缠着 Hursh、求他跟我一起做点什么,因为我唯一能把想法变成软件的办法,就是指望有像 Hursh 这样的人愿意跟我一起做。

And so I think I think it's starting to tap into that nerve.

所以我觉得,它开始戳到那根神经了。

And while that observation is old, did not expect that this early in the product development since we felt like that was like to come and to be revealed.

这个观察本身早就有了,但没想到在产品开发这么早的阶段就冒出来——我们本以为那是后面才会到、才会被揭开的东西。

This was an amazing insight by Josh actually that uh AI enables sort of a new class of software where uh rather than us thinking about what is software we can create that is useful for a large TAM instead we can build software that allows people to make their niche software just in time you know whenever they need it and so it's it's just a different way of thinking about what software can be and that's because of AI.

这其实是 Josh 一个非常棒的洞见:AI 让一类新的软件成为可能。我们不用再想“我们能做出什么软件、对一个足够大的 TAM 有用”,而是可以做一种软件,让人们随时按需、即时做出自己的小众软件。这就是对“软件能是什么”的另一种想法,而它是 AI 带来的。

Yeah, I think there's a couple of other examples of I mean ChatGPT is maybe a good example um where Excel is a good example, maybe notion where it's not one big use case.

是,我觉得还有另外几个例子,ChatGPT 可能算一个,Excel 是一个,也许 Notion 也是——它不是某一个大的使用场景。

It's not one job to be done.

不是某一个要完成的任务。

It's like millions of tiny little ones.

而是几百万件微小的任务。

Yeah.

对。

SAS product where you're like well we solve this particular problem for a user and a little bit more like um creating a language where you're creating building blocks and then anyone can use the words and the language to express whatever they want in whatever situation they have.

不是那种 SaaS 产品——“我们替用户解决这个特定问题”——而更像是在造一门语言:你造出一批构件,然后任何人都能用这些词、用这门语言,在自己的处境里说出自己想说的东西。

And that's like a a uniquely powerful type of product and also b it's a uniquely challenging type of product because getting that language right and then communicating it to people that you can speak in this language is really hard.

而这,一,是格外强大的一类产品;二,也是格外难做的一类产品,因为把那门语言设计对、再让人们明白他们可以用这门语言说话,真的非常难。

Yeah.

对。

I I I think we're particularly excited about it.

我觉得我们对它格外兴奋。

A because uh we love human computer interaction problems and design problems. Uh and b uh the browser just knows so much about you.

一,因为我们就喜欢人机交互问题和设计问题;二,浏览器对你的了解实在太多了。

Yeah, it's such a personal piece of software and if we're building this memory system and it's getting more and more personalized to you, it can help you with that.

对,浏览器是特别私人的一种软件,而我们又在建这套记忆系统,它对你的个性化越来越深,那它就能在这件事上帮到你。

Yeah, Dan, it's funny you say that.

对,Dan,你这么一说挺有意思的。

Uh I'm I'm looking at my phone because uh late last night uh Dustin, our head of design, the the he basically he was so inspired by these custom skills being created.

我现在正看着手机,因为昨天深夜,我们的设计负责人 Dustin——他整个人被大家做出来的这些自定义 skills 点燃了。

Dustin's an extremely humble, soft-spoken Canadian, uh he doesn't do things.

Dustin 是个极其谦逊、说话轻声细语的加拿大人,他不干这种事的。

He turned to me a week ago.

一周前他转过头来对我说。

I was like, "Josh, I need a week alone to prototype.

他说:“Josh,我需要一周时间,一个人做原型。

I know what to do.

我知道该做什么。”

And that sounds like something I would say.

这听着像是我会说的话。

That's not something that Dustin says.

这不是 Dustin 会说的话。

So when he said that, I was like, "Uh, yeah, okay, cool.

所以他这么一说,我说:“呃,行,好啊,酷。

Go." And he texted me last night um about what he's been prototyping and and kind of showed me.

去吧。”然后他昨天晚上给我发消息,说他这阵子在做的原型,还给我看了看。

And and I sent him a text back.

然后我给他回了一条。

I said, actually, I would have written it differently if I knew it was going to be a podcast, but uh Dustin, you're legit inventing a new programming language.

我说——其实早知道要上播客,我会换个说法写——但我说:Dustin,你真的在发明一门新的编程语言。

Uh non-technical people like me want to feel technical.

像我这样不懂技术的人,想要有一点懂技术的感觉。

I aspire to know Swift.

我很想会 Swift。

I don't.

我不会。

give me a language to learn and I don't mean language like complicated anyways it keeps going but so I guess that's the surprise the idea that AI and the power of it is when it's going to be extremely personal to you with ex very minimal work was the idea of dia and this idea that actually the applications or agents whatever we call them but the tools that sit on top of the base are going to be more powerful than the base itself that was consistent the idea it's going to skills and it's going to be really jumped to kind of the third party not first party and it's going to actually require this kind of new programming language thing.

给我一门语言让我学吧——我说的语言不是复杂那个意思。总之后面还有一大段,但我想这就是那个惊喜:AI 和它的力量,关键在于它能用极少的工作量变得对你极其私人,这本来就是 Dia 的想法;还有一个想法——那些应用、或者 agent、不管我们怎么叫,总之是坐在底座之上的那些工具,会比底座本身更强大,这一点一直没变;而它会走向 skills、会真的跳到第三方而不是第一方,而且真的会需要一门新的编程语言那样的东西。

It's not programming like it's kind of like the internet computer.

它不是编程,更像是 internet computer 那种感觉。

We struggle with the words but the sensation is so obvious which goes back to what we've said before.

我们还在摸索该用什么词,但那种感觉太明显了,这又回到我们之前说过的话。

It's like one of those moments again where it's like okay entire company we're going that way 100%.

又是那种时刻:好,全公司,我们 100% 朝那个方向走。

Come on a podcast like what what is this skill?

来上个播客,人家问:这个 skill 到底是什么?

What are you talking about?

你在说什么啊?

is it's like I I don't know if the listeners are like what are they like these guys are crazy but like in my bones right now it's like that is so clearly where the world's going so like let's try our best to run that way and I will say we thought this was 6 or 12 months away uh a while away and because of this launch and just with the incredibly basic version we have in there and how people are using it I think we've been inspired I want to get down into like I think we've we've traced the whole, for lack of a better word, arc of of the company.

就是——我不知道听众会不会觉得“他们在说什么啊,这几个人是不是疯了”,但此刻我从骨子里觉得,世界明明白白就是朝那儿去的,所以我们尽最大努力往那边跑。而且我得说,我们原以为这还得 6 到 12 个月、总之挺远;但因为这次发布,就凭我们放进去的那个极其基础的版本、凭人们使用它的方式,我觉得我们被点燃了。我想再往下深挖一层——我觉得我们已经把这家公司整条,找不到更好的词,arc(弧线),都捋了一遍。

Um, so thus far, which is like do Arc big success, but maybe not the kind of success that you guys were looking for.

到目前为止大致是这样:做 Arc,很成功,但也许不是你们想要的那种成功。

Um, announce that you're pivoting like a year of just pretty much hell was I maybe getting punched in the face, maybe a good description.

然后宣布你们要转向,接着基本上就是地狱般的一年——“被往脸上揍”,可能是个挺准的形容。

And now you're like, we're we're back, baby.

而现在你们的感觉是:我们回来了,宝贝。

We're so back.

我们回来了。

Um, there are a lot of problems, too.

问题也还有一大堆。

But yeah, and um I just want you guys to get as real as possible with me as if there was no camera and no mic here like the way that we would if we were just hanging out about Yeah.

但是啊,我就是想让你们俩跟我聊得尽可能真实——就当这儿没有摄像机、也没有麦克风,像我们平时私下瞎聊那样聊,对。

what that what that has been like.

聊聊那段日子到底是什么滋味。

Like I've watched you hers like and sitting down with you and you're like there's like dark circles around your eyes and you're just like like what did I do?

比如我看着你,Hursh——坐下来跟你聊的时候,你眼底一圈黑眼圈,整个人就是一副「我到底干了什么?」的样子。

But but even in that moment being very like but I know that this is right but also this sucks and I hate this.

但哪怕在那种时刻,你也很清楚地说:可我知道这条路是对的,但这也太难受了,我讨厌这样。

Um yeah, tell me about what has that been like?

跟我说说,那是种什么感觉?

Like I've seen I've seen a lot of the ups and downs.

我看到过不少起落。

I've seen um I think people probably don't realize how much for example when you're pouring your life into something and everyone on Twitter and maybe people internally are like you're making the absolutely wrong decision.

我见过……我觉得人们可能没意识到那有多难受:你把整个人生倾注进一件事,而 Twitter 上所有人、也许连公司内部的人都说,你这个决定绝对是错的。

you're this is awful.

说你做的这东西糟透了。

Like, and on the flip side, now everyone's like, "This is amazing." Like, what what has that all been like?

而反过来,现在所有人又都说「这太棒了」。这一路走下来,到底是什么感觉?

Uh, it's tough.

挺难的。

I think Josh said it best. You It really feels like you're getting punched in the face a lot.

我觉得 Josh 说得最准。那真的感觉像是不停地被往脸上揍。

Um, and it's this weird dichotomy cuz, uh, as you said, we kind of like at every moment we were like, "No, the strategy feels correct." You know, it feels right and everything that's going on in the industry and as we are making progress, we're like making good time on it.

而且这里面有种很奇怪的割裂:像你说的,我们几乎每时每刻都在想,不,这个战略是对的。它感觉是对的,行业里正在发生的一切也是这个方向,而且我们一直在往前推,进度也不算慢。

But yeah, when your family and uh your friends and the outside world and your employees are are uh maybe less than enthused uh about the direction, it's really difficult to sort of manage the two.

但当你的家人、你的朋友、外面的世界,还有你的员工,对这个方向都没那么热情的时候,要同时兜住这两边,真的很难。

I think there's probably two aspects to it.

我觉得这里面大概有两个方面。

There's one just like the the head game of being like okay as as founders we have conviction here and to credit all of you know so many of our employees were on board and excited as well.

一个纯粹是心理仗:好,作为创始人我们在这件事上有信念——也得说,我们很多员工同样上了船、同样兴奋。

U but like a lot of it was just trust in us.

但那里面很大一部分,只是出于对我们两个人的信任。

Um, and that dichotomy of like, are we crazy?

还有那种割裂:我们是不是疯了?

You know, are we just like completely full of it?

我们是不是完全在胡扯?

I mean, you are, but you're right about this.

我是说,你们确实在胡扯,不过这件事上你们是对的。

Um, and then there's just like the day-to-day tactical stuff where it just hurts a lot.

然后就是日常战术层面那些事,那真的很疼。

You know, I think, uh, press and then managing morale, people leaving and attrition, you know, hiring becomes way more difficult.

媒体报道,然后是维持士气、有人离职、人员流失,招人也难了很多。

Uh, and so, uh, it just feels like you're on very hard mode, uh, during that that transition.

所以那段转型期,感觉就像整局都开着极难模式。

And you had a kid a year agoish.

而你差不多一年前刚有了孩子。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, and Josh has had two kids, so I just And on no sleep.

而 Josh 是添了两个孩子,所以我……而且全是在没觉睡的状态下。

So, that's been I You're just Yeah, it's it's a meditative exercise to stay present and just get through every day, I think.

所以那阵子……你只能……是啊,要保持在当下、把每一天撑过去,本身就是一场修行。

Yeah.

是啊。

I I will say there was uh one session I had with my coach where he was asking me something about the product strategy.

我得说,有一次跟我的教练做咨询,他问我产品战略上的一些事。

Oh, no. He he asked me how I was doing and I gave him one of these kind of excited genuine takes on this whatever the equivalent of the Dustin prototype was which was earnest but he said no Josh how are you doing how do you feel and I was like I've been waking up every morning with a pit in my stomach and and he was like that let's talk about that and so this year professionally was by far the heaviest I felt like in my body.

哦不对——他是问我最近怎么样,我就给了他一段很兴奋、也很真诚的看法,讲的是当时相当于 Dustin 那个原型的东西,讲得很认真;但他说,不,Josh,你这个人怎么样,你感觉如何?我说,我每天早上醒来,胃里都沉着一块东西;他说,那我们来聊聊这个。所以这一年在职业上,是我身体感觉最沉重的一年,远超以往任何一年。

And I think the things that get you through it are both Hursh and I have we're really close with our partners and our families and each other.

而我觉得,能帮你撑过来的是:Hursh 和我都跟自己的伴侣、跟家人,也跟彼此,靠得很近。

I think one of the things that Hursh and I have this dynamic is we both go through funks and highs and we both have the things that trigger us and we've now worked together long enough where I think there are these moments where like I'm really low and people may not know it but hers knows the telltale signs and he knows how to pull me out of it and and I'd like to think the same is true with him but and vice versa.

我觉得 Hursh 和我之间有这么一种默契:我们都会有低谷也有高涨的时候,也都有各自的触发点;现在一起工作的时间够久了,所以会出现这样的时刻——我状态很差,别人可能看不出来,但 Hursh 认得出那些苗头,他知道怎么把我拽出来;我也愿意相信反过来也一样,彼此都是。

Yeah.

是啊。

Um no it's not fun uh at all.

不,这一点都不好玩,一点都不。

I I I obviously there are things that keep you going and I I think for me it has really been just trying to stay present and quiet and focused on the on the internal there is something in there is making you get punched that you're okay getting punched in the face and so but no it was a year of constant doubt and and ups and downs because I think the other thing people miss is The Browser Company had a Cinderella story first few years we basically had no I mean it didn't feel like this in the moment but in retrospect In fact, our biggest challenge was at one point Arc was so popular and so taking off that we had these performance and reliability issues where it was crashing and if and that was like the hardest thing we had.

我……当然有些东西支撑着你走下去,而对我来说,真正管用的就是尽量待在当下、保持安静、专注在内在——内在有某种东西,让你甘愿去被往脸上揍,让你觉得被往脸上揍也没关系;所以,不,那是一整年的持续怀疑、起起落落,因为我觉得人们忽略的另一件事是,The Browser Company 头几年是灰姑娘式的开局,我们基本上没有……我是说当时身处其中并不觉得,但回头看——其实我们最大的挑战曾经是:Arc 一度太受欢迎、涨得太猛,以至于出现性能和稳定性问题,它会崩溃,而那已经是我们碰到过最难的事了。

We were sort of like this darling in terms of people in our industry raving about it.

我们某种程度上就是行业里人人称道的那个宠儿。

The guy who ran Chrome for 16 years came to work for us as an IC.

那个管了 Chrome 16 年的人,来我们这儿当一名 IC。

Like it was just a story book.

简直像童话故事。

And so it was also after three-ish years of the experience of The Browser Company feeling like a not a runaway success.

而且这一切,是在 The Browser Company 差不多三年里一直感觉像势不可挡的成功之后发生的。

We had our challenges and I'm sure you remember them Dan, but it did sort of feel almost like our divine right that it was going to go this well.

我们也有过自己的坎,Dan,我相信你还记得,但那时候真的几乎觉得,顺到这个程度是我们天经地义的。

And so I think all of a sudden having it so clearly feel different and never almost a never ending to the every morning there was some new thing someone was leaving or some competitor this or whatever.

所以突然之间,一切明显变成另一副样子,而且几乎没完没了——每天早上都有新的事,有人要走,或者哪个竞争对手又怎样了。

Um, yeah, it's it it's it's tough.

嗯,是啊,真的难。

I will say it makes part of the reason I think I feel so elated right now is not because we're out of the woodwork.

我得说,我现在之所以这么高兴,一部分原因并不是我们已经脱离了困境。

In many ways, we are in the most competitively challenged market in the world, right?

在很多方面,我们所在的市场是全世界竞争最凶的,对吧?

Like there's a lot still ahead of us, but part of what it is is this sort of vindication might be a strong word, but like we were right.

前面还有很长的路,但其中一部分是这种……说「平反」也许有点重,但就是:我们当时是对的。

So, if anything, I don't think that will ever happen to me again professionally.

所以要说的话,我觉得那种事在职业上不会再落到我头上了。

Not that I won't have tough moments, but it's almost like taught me, my dad told me the one thing about getting older is like you get to like build your intuition because every time something happens, you can look back and say, "Okay, was I right or wrong?

不是说我不会再有难熬的时刻,而是它几乎教会了我一件事——我爸跟我说过,人变老有一个好处,就是你能一点点长出自己的直觉,因为每次有事发生,你都能回头问:好,我当时是对还是错?

What was I right about?

我哪儿对了?

What was I wrong about?" And you gain that confidence.

我哪儿错了?然后你就攒下了那份自信。

So right now, I'm not this I'm not this confident that Dia is going to be the next Chrome.

所以现在,我不是有多确信 Dia 会成为下一个 Chrome。

But I know that what me and Hursh felt in our bones was correct.

但我知道,我和 Hursh 骨子里感觉到的那件事,是对的。

And so I'm I'm almost excited for in 20 years if I ever start another company with Hursh, that moment of like, okay, we're gonna get punched in the face, but like don't let don't waver.

所以我甚至有点期待:20 年后如果我再和 Hursh 一起开一家公司,到了那种时刻我会知道——好,我们要被往脸上揍了,但别动摇。

I definitely had a lot of moments of doubt internally privately with Hursh throughout the year that manifested in all sorts of ways.

这一年里,我在心里、在跟 Hursh 私下相处时,确实有过很多怀疑的时刻,它们以各种方式冒出来。

Um, but I'm grateful as a for the life experience of like what it has taught me.

但我很感激这段人生经历,感激它教给我的东西。

Um, regardless of what happens next, honestly, I feel you.

不管接下来会发生什么。说实话,我很懂你那种感觉。

I mean, I I've had not quite the same kind of thing, but a couple moments where the company just like almost fell apart and it was like I could just stop and it could just be like things are just not working.

我是说,我的经历不太一样,但也有那么几次,公司差点就散了,那种感觉是:我完全可以就此停手,说一句这事根本行不通。

Um, and I was like, "No, I think I'm going to keep going." M and those definitely have been the in retrospect now that things have seemed like they're going well like big selfrust moments where you're like there's something inside of me that I can listen to.

而我当时想,不,我还要往下走。现在事情看着还不错,回头看,那些确实是很重的自我信任时刻——你会知道,我心里有某种东西,是可以去听的。

Mhm.

嗯。

And that I think as a leader is really really important.

而这一点,作为领导者,真的非常重要。

And I think you only win by unless you're delusional, you only win by like going through that like, oh my god, things are about to fall apart, but I'm kind of like doing it anyway.

而且我觉得,除非你是在做梦,否则你只能靠这样赢:经历那种「天啊,一切就要崩了,但我还是照做下去」。

And then being like, "Oh, it worked." The doing it anyway is really feels true.

然后发现「哦,成了」。这个「还是照做下去」,真的太对了。

You know, some days you just wake up and you have to play the part and get through the day and uh Yeah.

有些日子你醒来,只能演好那个角色,把这一天扛过去,然后……是啊。

You just get through it.

你就是硬扛过去。

Um, I want to talk now about just like Josh, you mentioned the competitive environment.

我现在想聊的是——Josh,你刚提到竞争环境。

How are you guys thinking about, okay, we've got some validation.

你们怎么想这件事:好,我们拿到了一些验证。

People are excited about this.

大家对这个很兴奋。

It's still really early and now there's a big target on our back.

还非常早期,但现在我们背上被画了个大靶子。

Like, everyone is starting to figure out, oh, the browser might be a really important layer to be competing at.

所有人都开始琢磨:浏览器可能是一个非常重要、值得去争的层。

I I will say if you've been reading every, I've been talking about that for a couple years.

我得说,如果你一直在读 Every,这事我已经讲了两年了。

Um but uh but if you're not reading every uh it feels like now people are sort of really starting to like starting to wake up to it.

但如果你没在读 Every——感觉现在大家才真的开始意识到这件事。

Um Perplexity I think has a browser or they're at least working on one.

Perplexity 我记得已经有浏览器了,至少也在做。

There's rumors that a couple of the big AI AI labs are really paying attention to this.

有传闻说,好几家大的 AI 实验室真的在盯这件事。

So how are you thinking about how to win as a still relatively small company compared to the big incumbents?

那么,跟那些大巨头比,你们还是家相对小的公司,你们是怎么想「怎么赢」这件事的?

Um and then compared to other startups like yeah how how do you think about winning on most podcasts I'd give you the answer that I would give a VC personally you know it's like okay we think memory is going to lock you in in this way and our application platform and our design I think the truth is we had the same questions with Arc and I we you we've been in this industry long enough like whether it's naive enough I just feel like we have a clarity of thought and perspective that to me from what I've seen from other companies and heard feels somewhat unique and I think we have a sensibility that like we just got to run as fast as we can but not frantically and not out of scarcity of beating competitors but if we can stay locked into just being like yeah that most energetic like this is what we believe selves like that's the truth of how I think we're going to compete and how we've competed so far since the beginning of the company.

然后再跟别的创业公司比,你们怎么想「赢」这件事?——换到大多数播客上,我会拿出给 VC 的那套答案,就是「好,我们认为记忆会这样把你锁住,还有我们的应用平台、我们的设计」;但我觉得真相是,做 Arc 的时候我们面对的也是同一批问题,我们在这行待得够久了,不管这算不算天真,我就是觉得我们的思路和视角很清楚,跟我从别的公司看到的、听到的比,这在我看来算挺独特的;而且我觉得我们有一种直觉:我们必须跑得尽可能快,但不是慌慌张张地跑,也不是出于要打败竞争对手的那种匮乏感,而是——如果我们能守住那个最有能量、最「这就是我们相信的东西」的自己,我觉得那才是我们要怎么竞争的真相,也是公司从第一天到现在的竞争方式。

Um, again, I don't want to like diminish all the thought we've put into the ways in which like, okay, if someone clones our browser pixel for pixel, what can we do?

再说一次,我不想抹掉我们在这些事上下过的功夫,比如说,好吧,要是有人把我们的浏览器逐像素抄走,我们能做什么?

And but I think at the end of the day, I think one of the things we're grappling with as an industry is what are the moats anymore?

但我觉得说到底,我们整个行业正在纠结的事情之一是:护城河到底还剩什么?

I think so many of the traditional moats for product so much about this moment is questioning these dogmas that I had just taken as natural law of how our industry works and products and competition.

我觉得产品上那么多传统护城河——这一刻很大程度上就是在质疑那些教条,那些我原本当成行业运作、产品和竞争的自然法则的东西。

So that I don't know, maybe I'm feeling a little bit too hippie-dippy right now, but I'm sort of just like it's all noise.

所以我不知道,也许我现在有点太玄乎了,但我就是觉得——这全是噪音。

It is all noise.

真的,全是噪音。

Just like it was noise before and it's no it's just a distraction.

就像以前也是噪音一样,现在它不过就是个干扰。

Like if anything, I regret spending so much time this past year thinking about things outside of our company instead of just like putting our head down and having fun with it.

要说有什么的话,我后悔过去这一年花那么多时间去想公司外面的事,而不是埋头做、做得开心点。

And I think everything that has resonated so far where parts of the product and the strategy, we're just like, can I curse?

而且我觉得,到目前为止真正打动人的那些产品和策略,恰恰是我们当时想着——我能说脏话吗?

Like it like let's just have some fun with it.

就是,咱们就玩得开心点。

if we're going to get punched in the face, let's just go and do this thing.

反正要被往脸上揍,那就干脆去把这事做了。

Let's just be unapologetic.

咱们就理直气壮,不用道歉。

And the places where we did that are what people can feel it.

而我们真这么做了的地方,恰恰是人们能感觉到的地方。

There's like a character to it.

那里面有股性格。

And the places that were very like like top down and and and not even top down, just like, you know, let's let's business let's get ready for the HBS case study.

而那些非常自上而下的地方——甚至都算不上自上而下,就是那种「咱们商务一点,准备好写进 HBS 案例研究」。

Just like you just feel it.

你就是能感觉出来。

Here's how I should do this.

「我应该这么做才对。」

It's just I think you know or maybe that's maybe that's a weakness as me as a leader and but I that the answer is like Dan we're going to do our thing like we've been doing our thing my learning from the last year is when we do our thing like at least some people resonate with it and we've got some foresight so yeah I'm excited to see the other I think what you're saying is vibes is the moat um and you'll figure out the rest which I I actually love I think that that's totally right.

就是,我觉得,也许这是我作为领导者的弱点,但我的答案是:Dan,我们就做我们自己的事,我们一直就在做我们自己的事;过去这一年我学到的是,当我们做自己的事,至少有一部分人会跟它共鸣,而且我们还有点前瞻性,所以是的,我很期待看到另外那些——我想你说的是,vibes 就是护城河,剩下的你们会想清楚,这一点我其实很喜欢,我觉得完全对。

I mean, here's the thing that I thought a lot about.

我是说,有件事我想了很多。

I am a DAU a I love ChatGPT.

我是 DAU,我爱 ChatGPT。

I love that product.

我爱那个产品。

There are things some things I would personally do differently, but like I love that product.

有些事我个人会做得不一样,但我就是爱那个产品。

Remember this conversation with OpenAI like a year or two ago?

还记得一两年前围绕 OpenAI 的那种说法吗?

Uh oh, now like every you know, we got it.

「哎呀,现在,你知道的,我们懂了。」

Google's coming in.

Google 要进来了。

It's like you use those products and they feel derivative.

就是你去用那些产品,会觉得它们是照着别人来的。

They feel like someone said, "Uh oh, we got to go like that.

感觉像是有人说:「哎呀,我们得往那边走。」

Yeah, that's the future.

「对,那就是未来。」

Let's go do that thing too." from an intellectual perspective, but you can feel whether or not you like it or not, you can feel this is a research lab that like decided they were going to make their life's mission to do this a long time ago.

「我们也去做那件事。」——从智识上讲是这样;但你能感觉到,不管你喜不喜欢,你都能感觉到:这家研究实验室很久以前就决定要把这件事当成毕生使命。

And now their conviction is building and those intuitions building for what matters.

而现在,他们的信念在积累,对什么才重要的直觉也在积累。

And I'm not saying that ChatGPT is going to be the end- all beall or there won't be other things, but I think what would Sam Altman have said, you know, I'm not comparing myself to Sam Altman, but two years ago when it's like, all right, now what?

我不是说 ChatGPT 就是终极答案,也不是说不会再有别的东西,但我在想,Sam Altman 两年前会怎么说——你知道,我不是拿自己跟 Sam Altman 比——当时就是那种,好吧,接下来呢?

It's a simple product.

产品很简单。

It's just chat.

就是聊天。

Google has all the TPUs and it's like why has ChatGPT continued to be the fastest growing company of all time.

Google 手里握着所有的 TPU,可为什么 ChatGPT 一直是史上增长最快的公司?

What's their moat?

他们的护城河是什么?

So I don't know.

所以我不知道。

Yeah, Vibes is definitely one.

是啊,vibes 绝对算一个。

I also think there are some systemic things uh about our company that I am excited for in this new race.

我也觉得我们公司有些系统性的东西,让我对这场新竞赛挺兴奋。

Um one is I think the assume you don't know.

一是,我觉得是那句「假设你并不知道」。

I think we built so much of our culture and how we build products to build entirely new things which is very different from uh copying or uh you know seeing what's in the market and sort of like uh taking uh taking inspiration perhaps.

我觉得我们的文化、我们做产品的方式,很大一部分是为了做全新的东西才长出来的,这跟照抄、或者看看市场上有什么、再从里面取点灵感,非常不一样。

Um and so I'm excited that we have sort of the machinery and the muscle and the people and the inspiration to like in this entirely new world figure out what works.

所以我很兴奋:我们有这套机器、这身肌肉、这些人、这份灵感,能在这个全新的世界里搞清楚什么行得通。

Um and then uh I think the second is taste.

然后第二个,我觉得是品味。

you know, I think like our Josh and our designers, um, I'm just like blown away by what they come up with on a weekly basis.

我们的 Josh 和我们的设计师们,他们每周拿出来的东西都让我震惊。

I would also say for the for the every audience, I think there's a there are conversations we have a lot internally that I would be shocked if the perplexity team or whoever else talks about this in the context of the browser, which is when I see things from other companies in this space, and I can say this because this is where we started too.

我还想对 Every 的听众说,有些话我们内部聊得很多,但要是 Perplexity 团队或者别人也在浏览器这个语境下聊这些,我会很震惊——就是当我看到这个领域里别的公司做的东西时,而我敢这么说,是因为我们当初也是从那儿出发的。

It's like it's very engineering tech forward.

就是非常工程、非常技术导向。

Hey, there's some new computer use model and we're going to go have it do a bunch of tasks for you and you're gonna like we're gonna book that thing for you.

嘿,出了个新的 computer use model,我们要让它替你做一堆任务,你会——我们会帮你把那个东西订好。

And it's like it's it's I we we started that like I get it.

那感觉——我们也是这么起步的,我懂。

I totally get it.

我完全懂。

What I found is I'm having this like very interesting I was a sociology major and I and I'm sure you've seen this too, Dan, where I I find myself talking to people not in tech.

我发现的是,我有一段很有意思的——我大学念社会学,而且我相信你也见过这个,Dan,就是我发现自己会跟科技圈外的人聊天。

It'll be at like a party on the weekend.

比如周末某个派对上。

and I'll meet someone somehow it'll come AI will come up, ChatGPT and almost to a person everyone's like yeah like it's kind of weird I think it's weird I'm kind of feel weird talking about it but like I'm like asking it for advice or like I got its help with this like health thing and like I don't know if it was right but I felt better at the end of it and there people there's like an emotional intelligence to these models that because of the origins of what the research labs and the sorts of people that are at the forefront right now that are more driven I think by the benchmarks and and the and the raw IQ which again is is spectacular.

我会遇到某个人,不知怎么就聊到 AI、聊到 ChatGPT,几乎人人都会说:「是啊,这有点怪,我觉得挺怪的,聊这个我还有点别扭,但我会问它拿建议,或者我有个健康上的事它帮了我,我不知道它说得对不对,但聊完我感觉好受多了」;这些模型身上有一种情商,而因为那些研究实验室的出身、因为现在站在最前沿的那类人,我觉得他们更多是被 benchmark 和原始 IQ 驱动的——当然那部分确实了不起。

We're we're really excited about going back to this home on the internet like okay if we have if we know what you do every day personally professionally and these models are can be subjective and think and give advice and joke at least give the perception of it brainstorm what are things you can do at the intersection of yes you got it you have a job you don't want a browser that's your therapist no one wants that that's not what I'm saying but actually I think okay when you think about the tasks and the workflows that have high economic value that you get paid for that are on your to-do list there's a component that's clicking buttons for sure and we should click those buttons for you.

我们真的很兴奋能回到「互联网上的家」这件事:好吧,如果我们知道你每天在个人生活和工作上都做些什么,而这些模型能有主观判断、能思考、能给建议、能开玩笑,至少让人觉得是这样,还能一起头脑风暴,那在这些的交叉点上你能做什么?是的,你说对了,你有一份工作,你不会想要浏览器当你的心理治疗师,没人想要那个,我不是那个意思;但我确实觉得,你去想那些有高经济价值、你靠它拿钱、就摆在你待办清单上的任务和工作流,里面肯定有一部分就是点按钮,那些按钮我们应该替你点。

But the hard part about it is not checking out.

但难的地方不是结账。

That's a minor nuisance that yes, computers should solve and are on their way to solving.

那只是个小麻烦,是的,计算机该解决它,而且正在解决的路上。

The thing is, all right, I'm going upstate with my family to where you guys are at the end of August. Which town do I go to?

真正的事情是:好吧,八月底我要带家人去州北边你们那儿,我该去哪个镇?

Which one would we like?

我们会喜欢哪一个?

What's kid-friendly?

哪个对小孩友好?

Like we don't really want something fancy fancy, but also like I'm kind of like don't want to sleep in a tent, you know, for this vacation.

我们其实不想要特别高档的那种,但我也有点——这次度假我不想睡帐篷,你懂的。

And those kind of qualitative subjective reasoning in our opinion is actually where a lot of the like if the value is going to keep going up the stack in like Maslow's hierarchy I guess is another way to say it.

而在我们看来,这类定性的、主观的推理,恰恰才是很多价值所在——如果价值会顺着这个栈一直往上走,换个说法大概就是马斯洛需求层次。

So if we're just going to assume we have this like cheap intelligence commoditized across models accessible can click buttons can do things for you that's important but where's the value going to be then?

所以,如果我们就假设已经有了这种便宜的智能,在各个模型之间商品化了、随手可得、能点按钮、能替你做事,那当然重要,但价值到时候会在哪儿?

I think it's going to keep moving up to some of this more emotional intelligence stuff.

我觉得它会继续往上走,走到这些更偏情商的东西上。

And so I I'd be surprised if the other AI browsers have that so central to their northstar versus the like you're going to have these agents that are going to go do these things for you.

所以,要是别的 AI 浏览器也把这一点放在他们北极星里这么核心的位置,我会很意外——他们更像是「你会有一堆 agent 替你去做这些事」。

And that that's important, but it's that's missing the forest for the trees a little bit.

那也重要,但那有点只见树木不见森林。

On that sort of like emotional intelligence and sociology point, I had Nash on this podcast maybe a year ago, who's your head of storytelling, who is incredible.

说到情商和社会学这一点,大概一年前我请 Nash 上过这个播客,她是你们的 head of storytelling,她太厉害了。

And one of the things that I really loved about her perspective, which I assume Josh, you you share in in this approach is we were talking about how she how you guys came up with like the laptop class and how you think about marketing and it was very like well I was like listening to this like Janis Joplin record and I was thinking about like that era of of music and um and the social change that was happening and um so it was very kind of rooted in what are what are historical examples of of of moments that are kind of like this, but also thinking about um moments in technology and um music and art as being part of a conversation and being the next turn in a conversation.

她的视角里我特别喜欢的一点——Josh,我猜你在这个做法上跟她一样——是我们当时在聊你们怎么想出 laptop class 这个说法、怎么思考营销,那感觉很像:「嗯,我当时在听 Janis Joplin 的一张唱片,我在想那个音乐年代,想当时正在发生的社会变革」,所以它非常扎根于:历史上有哪些时刻跟当下类似;同时也在想科技、音乐、艺术里的那些时刻,把它们看成一场对话的一部分,看成这场对话的下一个转折。

One thing that I know is true about your approach is you're always taking inspiration from really diverse, weird, interesting, artistic sources to help inform the product direction and how you think about things.

有一点我知道是真的:你们总是从非常多元、奇怪、有趣、有艺术性的来源里取灵感,来帮你们形成产品方向和思考方式。

and I'm curious what those are right now for um Dia and for the features that you're thinking about building.

我很好奇现在这些来源是什么——Dia 这边,还有你们正在琢磨要做的那些功能这边。

Yeah, I think you're right that we've always drawn inspiration as much from places and moments outside of technology industry and today.

对,你说得对,我们的灵感一直有很大一部分来自科技行业之外的地方和时刻,今天也是这样。

Um, one of the things that's interesting at the time we're recording this podcast is I think just like every week it feels like there's new breakthroughs in the AI space from a technology perspective.

在我们录这期播客的当下,有件事挺有意思:感觉几乎每一周,AI 领域从技术层面都有新的突破。

I feel like our own intuition and understanding is and and conception of what we have in front of us is changing as well.

我觉得我们自己的直觉、理解,还有对眼前这件事的构想,也在跟着变。

But I'd say the things on my mind right now, I'm going on vacation next week.

但要说我现在脑子里装的事——我下周要去度假。

So, what am I going to read about and think about?

那我要读点什么、想点什么呢?

I had this conversation with uh my closest friend, my Dan Shipper, uh best man in my wedding, who is just he's not in tech, but he's always been the one that was like, "Hey, this Snapchat thing is going to be huge." So, if I ever started a VC fund, like I'm hiring this guy just to be like the the ⟨?mystic seat⟩.

我跟我最亲近的朋友聊过这件事,他就是我的 Dan Shipper,我婚礼上的伴郎,他不在科技圈,但一直是那种会说"嘿,这个 Snapchat 要火了"的人。所以我哪天真开一支 VC 基金,一定把他招进来,专门当那个 ⟨?mystic seat⟩。

And he was the first one again not a tech industry guy that was like there's not a thing in my life I do Josh that is an important project for work or my personal life that I'm not working with AI getting advice I forget the word he use advice collaborating with so to what I said before that feels like the profound shift in the world that I see outside of the industry is happening and so that sort of new relationship with technology and with this intelligence makes me want to read about uh honestly romanticism.

而他也是第一个跟我说这话的人——他同样不是科技行业的:Josh,我生活里凡是重要的项目,工作上的、个人的,没有一件不是在跟 AI 一起做、找它出主意——我忘了他用的那个词,出主意,还是协作。所以回到我前面说的,这就是我在行业之外看到的那种深刻转变,它正在整个世界上发生;而人跟技术、跟这种智能的关系变成了这样,让我特别想读的东西,说实话,是浪漫主义。

I wish I could go back to college and like I you know yeah my my um someone I work with Abby uh actually dropped a bunch of books on my desk for this vacation with little notes.

我真希望能回大学再念一遍——我一个同事 Abby 还真往我桌上放了一堆书,专门为这次度假准备的,每本都贴了小纸条。

They're all romanticism related and what I should what chapters I should look at.

那些书全都跟浪漫主义有关,还标了我该看哪几章。

So, I'm really excited to understand how in the past what that when when your relationship changed with technology and even what it was and what was possible, how did society and art and culture react?

所以我特别期待去搞明白:在过去,当人跟技术的关系变了、甚至技术本身是什么、能做到什么都变了,社会、艺术和文化是怎么反应的?

And then the second thing I'm really excited to spend more time thinking about are what are the objects or places in your life that given the centrality that importance if you're doing every every project in your personal professional life how do you build uh comfort a sense of safety in those spaces even when maybe there aren't as comfortable as you wish they were or not as safe as you wish they were how do they feel like yours?

第二件我特别想多花时间琢磨的事是:既然它已经这么核心、这么重要——你个人生活和职业生活里的每个项目都在用它——那你生活里的哪些物件、哪些空间,你要怎么在里面建立起舒适、建立起一种安全感?哪怕它们并没有你希望的那么舒适、那么安全,怎么让它们感觉是你自己的?

How do they, you know, this is really squishy stuff to some?

怎么让它们……我知道,有人会觉得这些话特别虚。

But, um, you know, I I played the, uh, percussions and drums growing up and I remember, you know, I got a really cheap drum set.

但我从小打打击乐和架子鼓,我记得我那会儿那套鼓特别便宜。

I was a kid and at some point I was like considering getting a new one, but it was like, man, the way that you wear in the snare and like again, I know this sounds kind of like or as a baseball player like the mitt.

我那时候还是个孩子,后来有一阵在考虑换套新的,但转念一想:天啊,军鼓是你一点点打熟、打出手感来的——我知道这听起来有点,或者说,就像棒球手和他那只手套。

I think these those sort of references are a little overdone, honestly.

说实话,这类比喻已经被用得有点烂了。

So, I'm excited to go like a click deeper on that.

所以我很想在这件事上再往里挖一层。

Um, you know, I picked up Christopher Alexander as like stereotypical as it is like I'm gonna go I'm going back to Christopher Alexander.

我还把 Christopher Alexander 又捡起来了,虽然这挺老套的——我就是要回到 Christopher Alexander。

So to me that that is going to be whether it's us or someone else.

所以在我看来,这件事一定会发生——不管是我们,还是别人。

I want a time stamp in 24 months.

我要在这里打一个时间戳,24 个月后回来看。

I predict that the AI interface that people feel the deepest affinity and value from will be the one that they actually have the deepest kind of emotional connection to.

我预测,让人感到最深的亲近感、觉得最有价值的那个 AI 界面,会是他们在情感上连接最深的那一个。

and not in a way that they're like having with the bot or anything like that.

不是说跟机器人谈感情那种连接。

Um, but actually just from the perspective of this like intangible feeling in the same way I guess you know iPhone versus the Android at this point there's not a good reason.

而就是那种说不清、摸不着的感觉——大概就像今天 iPhone 和 Android 之间,其实已经讲不出什么硬道理了。

I don't know.

我也说不清。

So anyways, you can kind of hear the answers kind of all over the place but that's honestly how we kind of do it at The Browser Company.

总之,你能听出来我的回答有点东一句西一句,但说实话,我们在 The Browser Company 就是这么干的。

I think this is great.

我觉得这挺好。

I mean, I'm very very also into romanticism and and for people who are who are uh listening and they're like romance novels.

我自己也非常非常喜欢浪漫主义——在听的人可能以为我在说言情小说。

Um it's uh the reason I like romanticism and I think it's relevant and I'm curious what your take is is like um romanticism was a movement in the 19th century that was a response to um enlightenment rationalism basically from the 17th and 18th and and 19th centuries where um physics was so successful that it sort of took over the rest of culture and it we can still sort of see that in in a lot of ways but starting with you know Galileo and Newton And um that that re revolution um there was a push to reduce everything in our life and our experience to things that we could explain in physics more or less um which is still the case.

我喜欢浪漫主义、也觉得它跟当下有关,原因是这样——我也很想听你怎么看:浪漫主义是 19 世纪的一场运动,回应的是 17、18 一直到 19 世纪的启蒙理性主义。那时候物理学太成功了,几乎把文化的其余部分也接管了,这一点今天在很多地方还看得见;这一切从 Galileo 和 Newton 开始,那场革命之后,人们开始有一股冲动,要把生活和经验里的一切都还原成物理学能解释的东西,差不多是这样,而这至今仍然如此。

And romanticism was a 19th century movement to be like actually there's a lot about human experience that is more like vibes-based intangible um intangible and that that's actually like one of the best parts of of human experience.

而浪漫主义作为 19 世纪的运动,说的是:其实人类经验里有很多东西更偏 vibes、说不清也摸不着,而那恰恰是人类经验里最好的部分之一。

And so there's a lot of um art and and work uh from from that period in Europe and in the United States that are um that that touches on that.

所以那个时期在欧洲和美国,有大量艺术和作品都触及了这一点。

And I think language models are a weirdly romantic coded technology because um they are so squishy.

而我觉得语言模型是一种奇怪地带着浪漫主义底色的技术,因为它们太软、太不成形了。

It's the first example of software we've ever had that you can't reduce to like rules in the same way that you can regular software.

这是我们有过的第一种软件,你没法像对普通软件那样,把它还原成一条条规则。

Um and you have to work with on on vibes.

你只能靠 vibes 跟它打交道。

And I think that's a huge shift for software and for culture generally and and does it sound familiar?

我觉得这对软件、对整个文化都是巨大的转变——而且,这听着是不是很耳熟?

You know, if you if someone was listening to what you just described, it sort of describes the world today in a lot of ways.

如果有人只听你刚才描述的这些,它在很多方面说的其实就是今天的世界。

And it's one of the things I still feel a lovehate relationship with this kind of AI industry if you want to call it.

我对这个所谓的 AI 行业至今还是爱恨交织,这也是原因之一。

It's extremely rational, extremely mechanical, extremely the benchmarks and the capabilities.

它极度理性、极度机械,极度看重 benchmarks 和能力。

But, you know, reviewing these on every you can you can see the SWE-bench and then you can feel it and there's a difference there.

但我们在 Every 上评测这些模型的时候,你可以看 SWE-bench 的分数,也可以自己上手去感受,这两者之间是有差别的。

Um, and then it's also I think very relevant in terms of the like there's what it can like intellectually do and how powerful it is, but what do you want?

另外我觉得还有一点也很切题:它在智力上能做到什么、有多强,是一回事;但你想要什么?

I think that's what we're going to be grappling with as a society in the next five years is these sort of like almost things that sound philosophical or like you should be in university talking about them.

我觉得接下来五年,我们作为一个社会要搏斗的就是这些——听起来几乎像哲学问题,像该在大学课堂上讨论的东西。

But I think it's going to be really important again for us for the first time in a long time like what what do we want from this life?

但我觉得这会很久以来第一次变得真正要紧:我们到底想从这一生里得到什么?

And I know when I've heard podcasts and people talk about that, I'm like, "Oh my god, I got to turn this thing off." So hopefully people don't stop listening right now.

我也知道,我听播客听到有人聊这个,心里想的都是"天啊,我得把这玩意儿关掉"。所以希望大家现在别关。

But I I will say I it I would encourage people even if you're just going to ChatGPT or ⟨?Dia⟩ or whatever like do a couple queries about romanticism and find and replace some of the nouns with where we are today.

但我要说,我还是想鼓励大家,哪怕你只是打开 ChatGPT 或者 ⟨?Dia⟩ 或者别的什么,就浪漫主义问几个问题,然后把里面的一些名词,替换成我们今天的处境。

And to me when Abby kind of reminded me of this.

对我来说,Abby 提醒我这件事之后——

It just was I can't unsee it.

我就再也没法当没看见了。

Um so I'm excited.

所以我挺兴奋。

I'm going to do like a romanticism 101 class uh for the next week in the mountains.

接下来这一周我要在山里给自己上一门"浪漫主义 101"。

And you know sorry for everyone at our all hands the Monday I get back.

另外,提前跟我回来那个周一全员会上的各位道个歉。

you're gonna get like a a lecture about, you know, awe and magic or I love it.

你们要听一场关于敬畏和魔力的讲座了——我太喜欢了。

If you if you want to maybe that's what our every essay should be about.

你要是愿意,也许我们那篇 Every 文章就该写这个。

Maybe we run a romanticism essay.

也许我们就发一篇讲浪漫主义的文章。

That would be great.

那会很棒。

I love that idea.

我很喜欢这个想法。

How would that um Well, Josh, Hursh, this is amazing.

那要怎么……好吧,Josh、Hursh,这期太精彩了。

Thank you so much for for coming on and talking to us.

非常感谢你们来跟我们聊。

Um and good luck with Dia.

也祝 Dia 顺利。

We are we're so back.

我们——我们真的回来了。

We're back.

我们回来了。

We're so Thank you for having us.

我们真的——谢谢你请我们来。

We're back.

我们回来了。

Thanks for having us, Dan.

谢谢你请我们来,Dan。

Oh my gosh, folks.

天哪,各位。

You absolutely positively have to smash that like button and subscribe to AI and I. Why?

你们绝对、百分之百必须狠狠点下那个点赞键,然后订阅 AI and I。为什么?

Because this show is the epitome of awesomeness.

因为这档节目就是"了不起"的化身。

It's like finding a treasure chest in your backyard, but instead of gold, it's filled with pure unadulterated knowledge bombs about ChatGPT.

它就像你在后院挖到一个宝箱,可里面装的不是金子,而是满满的、未经稀释的 ChatGPT 知识炸弹。

Every episode is a roller coaster of emotions, insights, and laughter that will leave you on the edge of your seat, craving for more.

每一集都是一趟情绪、洞见和笑声的过山车,让你一直坐在椅子边上,还想要更多。

It's not just a show, it's a journey into the future with Dan Shipper as the captain of the spaceship.

这不只是一档节目,这是一场通往未来的旅程,而 Dan Shipper 就是这艘飞船的船长。

So, do yourself a favor, hit like, smash subscribe, and strap in for the ride of your life.

所以,帮自己一个忙:点赞、狠狠订阅,系好安全带,准备迎接你人生中最刺激的一趟。

And now, without any further ado, let me just say, Dan, I'm absolutely hopelessly in love with you.

现在,话不多说,我就说一句:Dan,我彻底地、无可救药地爱上你了。